A Discussion About Filicide With Rachel From Like Mother Like Murder

Welcome to Primetime Crime. I'm your host, Kylie. Let's talk right now in true crime, and then together we are going to work on warming up some cold cases. Let's go. Hey, guys, welcome to Primetime Crime. It's Kylie. I apologize for the episode coming out a little late. It has been the longest of long weeks. It's just one of those weeks where nothing goes right and everything happens at once. So that's kind of where I have been. And there's a lot that I want to talk about for right now in true crime, and I didn't want to not give it my all, so I am recording this on a Friday night at eight thirty pm after a very long day and about four hours of sleep. So first thing I want to talk about is October twenty fifth, That You Should Be Here podcast series is launching a new series that is Cases That Haunt Us And this is a collaborative podcast with some other podcasters in the true crime podcasting community, and it's a podcasters give back events, so any proceeds that are made go directly to an organization that helps victims and their families. So if you aren't following you Should Be here, please go do that now and stay tuned October twenty fifth. Next week, all of the episodes are going to drop, and each of us are sharing a case that haunts us, one that we just never have been able to stop thinking about. So please tune in for that, Okay. So now I want to get into some semi breaking news in the last couple of days. So I don't know if anybody has followed the disappearance of Chance Engelbert, but he is a Wyoming man who went missing in twenty nineteen. He is only twenty five years old, and he had gone to visit some family in Nebraska and he has been missing ever since and his family has been desperately trying to locate him. So investigators came across some belongings as well as remains, and these belongings were located near the skeletal remains, and several of the items that were located Chances family has identified as items that belong to him. So the Douglas County Coroner's Office is of course assisting in the forensic examination of the skeletal remains dental records DNA samples, but they haven't positively identified those remains yet as belonging to Chance, but the items that were nearby the remains have been identified by his family as belonging to him. So we are kind of just in a holding pattern waiting for the official conference. But this is breaking news because he's been missing since twenty nineteen with no new leads and just a lot more questions than there is answers. So I'll continue to keep you guys updated on this one if there is any more breaking news. Next thing I want to get into is. Donna Adelson had her final day of sentencing and she was sentenced to life in prison, which we knew was going to happen, and she was also sentenced to an additional thirty years for conspiracy and solicitation. And as we know, she was convicted of first degree murder, conspiracy, and solicitation. She will spend the rest of her life behind bars. I will be honest. I did not sit through the sentencing. I know Harvey spouted off a little bit during it and basically said that the Markel's basically were lying about not having access to their grandchildren following Dan's death. And this is the same time frame where Wendy basically isolated the boys and then changed their last name from Markel to Adelson. So I don't really have much more that I need to say about that. I don't trust anything that an Aidelson says, except for of course Rob Adelson. And yeah, she's going to spend the rest of her life behind bars. And at this point in time, we're still waiting to see is Wendy going to be arrested. The jury is for sure still out on that one. But if anything breaking happens, I will keep you updated, Okay. Next thing on our list is Jake Harrow, the father of missing seven month old baby Emmanuel. Harrow has officially changed his plea from not guilty too guilty of committing murder against his son Emmanuel. What a crazy turn of event because he really doubled down on his innocence and now he has decided, of course to change his plea to guilty. And he also pled guilty to filing a false police report and the assault of a child under the age of eight. Emmanuel still has not been found. He is presumed deceased, and his mother, who came out with the story about how Emmanuel was kidnapped from her and she was attached she was hit in the face she got a black eye. She is still sticking with her not guilty plea, so it's going to be interesting. I think she's going to be in court in November, early November to see I wonder if she's going to also change her plea or what's going to happen. I think these two are definitely going to flip on each other. He's already kind of leaning that way since he did decide to plead guilty. It's going to be interesting to see what happens with this one. So at this point, I think he just needs to share where Emmanuel's remains are. But honestly, this is the perfect example of how people typically aren't going to change their ways. This individual, Jake, had previously abused a child, his daughter, so badly that she is wheelchair. Bound, she can't eat, I think she's blind. She has been adopted by a great, loving family who is giving her wonderful, amazing care. But he should have never had access to children after this, And it just really makes you wonder where the court system is in all of this, and how stuff like this just seemingly slips through the cracks. So I'll keep you updated on that. And then, like I said, Rebecca is set to be in court early November. I want to say it's November three, and I'll you updated with what happens with that. So the medical examiner has doubled down on the fact that Ellen Greenberg took her own life, and I'm just so devastated for Ellen's family. Her parents have been fighting so hard to get her death reclassified as what it is, which in my opinion, is a homicide because she was stabbed over twenty times. A lot of her stab wounds were to the back of her head, and it just doesn't seem feasible that she did this to herself. There is a lot of sketchiness when it comes to Ellen's case, the way that it was handled initially to how things are being handled presently. There was a Hulu documentary that just released recently and I think it's three episodes, and it's so devastating because you get to hear from people that worked with Ellen, her parents, of course, her other family, and Sam, her fiance at the time, denied to be in the documentary, so there was just a little statement from him at the end, but we haven't really heard much from him except for recently semi recently, he released a statement, and basically that statement was just saying that his world was uprooted when Ellen took her life, and there needs to be more of a shift in this whole thing in regards to mental health and all of that. So he is just really sure that she took her life. Everybody else thinks that it's suspicious, but he is sure that she took her life. I don't know. I think if there was somebody in my life who I really loved and cared about and was engaged to be married to, and there was all of this question around her cause of death. You have death investigators who have done this for decades, like Joe Scott Morgan, who are very much questioning how this could have happened, and he has never once questioned anything, and that, in my opinion for me, is. Not right. There's something off there, and we're not getting into it. We're not getting into my thoughts and feelings on all of this. But it's really sad and unfortunate for her family because they have been fighting so hard to get this reclassified and for whatever reason, this medical examiner is not budging on that ruling. If there are any updates, I will be sure to bring them to you. But at this point, I think all that we really can do is just send the prayers and love and strength towards Ellen's parents because they are really dealing with so so much here, and I think Ellen deserves justice, and unfortunately we're not at that point right now. So we'll keep you updated if anything happens. All right, So, there has been a break in a nearly forty two year old case. This was the nineteen eighty four homicide of sixteen year old girl Teresa Fusco. She was murdered and sexually assaulted in nineteen eighty four. So she was last seen leaving work at a roller rink that she lived in about thirty miles east of Manhattan on November tenth of nineteen eighty four, and her body was later found in a wooded area a month later. She had been sexually assaulted and strangled. Now, over the years, there were three different men who had been arrested and charged with her rape and homicide, and they ended up serving a lot of time, but their convictions were overturned in two thousand and three when DNA testing revealed that the profile that was recovered from some of the swabs done to Teresa's body did not belong to these three men. So investigators had been del gently working on this kind of reanalyzing the DNA, building a family tree, and they identified a man named Richard Billadeau who is now sixty three. They were able to obtain his DNA from a smoothie straw that he had thrown away in the garbage, and of course they tested it and it is a one hundred percent match. So he was arrested and he is now in. Jail awaiting all of the things that come with being arrested for an almost forty two year old cold case. So he lived with his grandparents in Lynbrook, about a mile from the rink at the time that Teresa was killed. He would have been around twenty two years old at the time, and he has lived his whole life out and about amongst others. So I'm really curious to see if they are able to tie any other crimes to him, Because I've said it, I'll say it again. I don't believe that you just commit a crime like this once and kind of get it out of your system and then you go on to be an upstanding human and citizen. I don't believe that. I think people with this violent of a nature are going to reoffend, and if they're left to their own devices and they're not incarcerated in any way, shape or form, they are going to reoffend. So I'm really interested to see if anything comes out as far as other crimes that he could potentially be tied to. But nonetheless, he is locked up and he will be charged for Teresa's murder that happened in nineteen eighty four. So if there's anything else that comes out about this, I will be sure to keep you updated. But we are going to go ahead and get into today's episode. Alrighty guys, Today we are getting into a different type of episode for this podcast, but one that's very important, and I really want to make an effort to not only share cold cases on my channel, but also to branch out of that and sure other important causes and help spread awareness. Today I'm joined by my good friend Rachel Halliway, who is one half of Like Mother, Like Murder and mom Cast Productions. She's going to share with us about philicide, which is the deliberate act of a parent killing their own child. Mom Cast Productions also produce ins Voices against Philicide, which is hosted by hoche Houton, who herself has found herself picking up the pieces after her children were taken by philicide. I'm going to go ahead to let. Rachel introduce herself, although you guys likely already know her because I talk about like mother, like murder constantly on the pod. Rachel, thanks so much for joining me today. Yes, thank you for having me, and thank you for that intro by the way, that was special. It feels surreal being here because, like you mentioned, we're friends now, but before friends, I listen to you. You know, we had this group Chad, and we started kind of like getting familiar with other podcasts, so we found who we wanted to listen to. So it's like I started listening to you and becoming a fan before I was your friends. So now I'm like this is this is awesome for me as well, and I'm excited. Yeah, it's so full circle and I love having you here. Yeah, I'm sad my my other half can't be here. She unfortunately has a real job, very demanding. I miss her already. She's the she's the extrovert. She's very good at what she does. But I'll do my very best. You love, Heather, and I love I mean, I love the fact that I know what you do here on Primetime Prime and I know you know your main focus is cold cases. There's probably, unfortunately so many philicide cases that have gone cold that I'll get to you eventually. The fact that, like statistically we have a number, but that number is so underdocumented because there's so many cases that people don't even a where are philicide cases? They're they're cold cases, they're unsolved, whatever it is. So I'm happy to be here to talk about it today in a way that I know it's going to raise awareness. Speak to your listeners and help these specifically to moms that we've been working with in kind of like the journey that we've been on. Yeah, exactly. We are very glad to have you and can't wait to hear it all. Yeah, so do you want to you want to jump right in? Yeah. I didn't know if there was like anything else that we should be talking about beforehand, because I'm so used to I'm like, I want to sit and listen to your episode, but it's like, wow, I'm actually I have. To talk on my episode. This is crazy. I love it though, and hopefully I know you know, Kylie, you and I have talked about the fact that hopefully hope will be on with you really kind of dive deeper, So today will be more of an overview on everything that's going on in this huge, huge problem that is kind of taking place, and it has it has always been taking yes, But so Heather and I, oh, yeah, you said I was from Like Motherlike Murder. I'm like, should I. Introduce myself if you already did that for youself, tell us a little bit about you, how you started your pod, all of that, and then we can get into the topic at hand. That's so funny. You think we would be so much better. You guys, we are like years deep and this is just hilarious. Years deep sitting with a friend and it's like, what are words? I am one half of Like Mother Like Murder. Our podcast is a little different. You know. This true crime genre is huge, and you I feel like you have to have your niche and so we are a mom cast, which everything that we do, or the majority of what we do, is mom related. So missing moms, murdered moms, survivors, We work alongside moms. That's just kind of our focus. And the other thing is we are two moms. We're two moms who are bringing these stories, so that's kind of the pertive that you're going to get. We try to focus on just the mom aspect of everything, and so we've been doing it. I want to say, in June it will be four years, which I even say in that I'm like, Holy heck, what is this life? Because it does not feel like that long, But then sometimes it feels like ten years, so it's so weird. But we have kind of changed, like throughout our course of our podcasting journey. We started actually as a different podcast called Wine Time. In the longer and more time that we spent in this community, we have grown and kind of like changed our direction of what we want to do. Our thing is we were two friends who wanted to start a podcast where we got to talk to each other and share stories, and we still do that, but now we come from a very like advocacy focused at the moral focus more so than we did, and we try to own up to that too, because I feel like we don't want to be oblivious to the fact that where we started is not where we are now, and that comes with why we have been so passionate about working with these moms specifically because I feel like it's kind of been our calling at this point. So I'm just happy to be here to be able to talk about, you know, them, because it's just it's come so far since the beginning. I think there's really been a shift in the true crime podcasting space focused on victim advocacy and ethic storytelling. And I mean, I think back to my first. Episodes and I'm like, eh, I want to redo them, but you know, it's all about evolving and growing, figuring out what is going to best serve the community, what's going to best serve the victims and their families. So you guys are doing an amazing job. Thank you. I appreciate that, And you're right, like I've thought about there are actually some episodes we have rerecorded, but some of them I've thought about deleting. But I'm also a very straight up person and I want other people to understand that this is a part of the growth, and that's why I haven't deleted certain things, because I mean we never deliberately like tried to be bad or negative or something like that, but to see the change that we've done, I feel like is important for other people as well, So I fully agree there is that. So before we get into what we are talking about, I do want to offer your listeners and you, Kylie a trigger warning. We are going to be talking about murder, suicide, child loss, mental health abuse, all of those things. It is a very very heavy conversation, but it is a very necessary and needed conversation right now, So we will dive in. Okay, So I'm gonna be telling you guys about two specific philocide cases, and then after that, I'm gonna tell you guys about what is being done because of the loss of these children. These mothers have started to make change for other families and for other children that we kind of need all of the support, all of the help, all of the the eyes and ears to know about what they're doing to help push forward in their mission ultimately. So first I'm going to talk about Rowan Mory Poles, who he was six years old. Rowan Moury Poles was this little blonde boy who was so full of life. He was so funny, so witty, and he was just this little mama's boy. And we have worked alongside Brandy Brandy Morey Poles, who was Rowan's mom. She came onto our podcast and sat down with us. And actually, right now I want to say thank you to Kylie because right after we had Brandy on, Kylie did share this episode on this feed. So a lot of you guys have probably already heard Rowan's story. So I am going to give a little bit of an overview before I get into kind of what has happened since then. But Rowan went missing in August of twenty twenty four, and it was a situation where Brandy and her it wasn't even an ex but Rowan's father. They had a custody agreement and it was the biological father's time to have Rowan. And on Monday morning, Brandy was supposed to get Rowan back at nine in the morning, and Mike never arrived. He never showed up to the spot. And from that moment when he did not show up, Brandy was already having the feelings of, you know, what could have happened or kind of worst case scenario. She was kind of crushed in this moment, and so she reached out to law enforcement. She wanted help. She wanted to say, hey, you know I'm supposed to get my son back. He's not here. I need you guys to do something. And she was dismissed. She was kind of like not set on the back burner, but not given that support in that urgency that she needed in this moment and that she should have gotten in this moment. And so she ended up without Rowan for fifty two hours, ultimately fifty two hours from that Monday morning until she heard the news that her son's life was taken. And throughout that fifty two hours, she reached out to not only the local law enforcement, she reached out to the law enforcement where Rowan's father lived. She reached out. She actually went and filed an emergency motion in the courthouse, and she did every single step she should have done, and she was met with pause or kind of like a just like I said, no urgency. It was as if they were like waited out, waited out. He's fine, he'll be fine, he'll get back, he's with his dad, and it's like no, like she had this mother's intuition of no, he should have already been back, so I shouldn't have to wait. And she's so correct in that, because if anyone who has gone through the court systems and had to, you know, file for custody or go through different custody agreements. Right, you sit there and you come up with these agreements that are going to be put into place so that you know what your time is. You know what time you're getting your child back. You know what time you need to be somewhere to give your child to the other parent. It's written on an agreement that is signed by a judge. So therefore, or when it comes around to that time, why did she have to file the motion in the first place, right, Like she already had information on what it was supposed to be. And so ultimately what that led to was Rowan was found deceased on the property of his father's in a camper on the back of the property, where after Mike took Rowan's life, he then took his own life. It's devastating because you know, for those fifty two hours she had those ill thoughts of I just need help, I need someone to do their job, I need someone to look for my baby, and it didn't happen. And things have came out since then of videos of the cops of people that are put into place to help. They did do wellness checks on his property, they never did full searches of the property. And the entire time they're laughing and talking about how Brandy's crazy, pretty much saying all these things about you know, oh, she's probably just this crazy mom, and it's disgusting to see these videos that have came out ever since then. And so that's pretty much the just of that horrific time for her. But this all started before it all started, when there were already issues, There were already warning signs, there were already red flags in this situation with the ex that were brought to others attention beforehand, and yet they still were negligent to it. Right, So Brandy talks a lot about the facts that Mike would go out of his way to shave Rowan's head to intentionally aggravate her. So Brandy had fought breast cancer and she also was a hairdresser, and so it's like he would do these things right before, say, Brandy's son was gonna get married. He would shave his head knowing that they were going to be doing family photos stuff like that. And when she would bring this up to you know, CPS or courts or whatever, they would just be like, Okay, he's allowed to, you know, take care of his son's you know, physical well being, and it's like yeah, but it's. More than that. Other things about him. Mike was a convicted felon, and he did have fire arms on his property. There were things that were brought up and missed over and over and over. And so I feel like right now with where Brandy is at, she's taking every single thing from her story, from Rowan's story, from the tragedy of losing Rowan, and she is actively making a difference. And she has been since Rowan had passed away. Like she has her days where it's hard to get out of bed and it's hard to do anything, but every time she gets out of that bed, it is to make a difference for another child. And it's actually it's admirable what she's doing. And it kind of blows me away because I don't think I would be in that headspace whatsoever. Randy is amazing watching her journey on social media so inspiring. I don't think I could do it either. But she is making such a huge difference and she's only just starting. So a year from now, imagine where we're going to be. It's just amazing to watch, it really is. And so, like I said, I know that you shared the episode, and I'm going to talk more about exactly the stuff that she is doing. But anyone who has not listened to that episode, go back and listen to the whole story. Brandy actually sat down with us for that, so you get to hear a lot from her, from her perspective, all of the details. And the most beautiful thing is you really get to hear her talk about Rowan, talk about who he is, tell the funny stories that she has. Like one of them, she talks about the fact that she had given him this little costume and he thought he was a spider man and it's the funniest thing in the world to me because he was not a spider. He literally he was a cockroach. And someone like one of the sisters I think, was like, mom, you that's a cockroach that is not a spider and she's like, you better not tell him because she did not want to burst his little bubble. And they started calling him Lacucaracha. And I think it's the funniest thing. But it's like those things that you hold on to as a mother I know are shattering her, but there are also few to move forward with all of this. So go back listen to that episode if you haven't, and then, like I said at the end, I will talk about she is a fighter. She has already started making waves in the Michigan Congress and she has started the Rowan project. So I will talk about that in a little bit. But the other mom that we have also actively been working alongside her name is Hope Houtin, who I know at one point Kylie will sit down and talk with her. You'll probably say with Brandie at some point, I'm just like speaking it into existence. At this point, we're gonna do us. So I'm like, you're definitely going to. But Hope putin so again, around the exact same time that Brandy lost Rowan, Hope had lost not one, but both of her children to fill aside just a few months before Brandy, and this was in May of twenty twenty four. They had lived in Arizona at the time, and it was a very not similar It's not similar because Brandy and Mike were not together, but similar in the sense that there were so many red flags. There were so many warning signs, and it was in the midst of court battles, and so Hope and her husband before his name was Brock, they were in the middle of a divorce. She had served him divorce papers, and after the divorce papers, things kind of began to spiral and Brock was no longer who he used to be. And Hope is someone who is She's very faith based, she's very you know, a member of the church and a child of God, and she is so active in her belief that her even though she wanted this divorce and she initiated this divorce, she has came at this from the perspective that Brock was not who he was, and that is the problem in this case, even more so because he showed the signs that his mental health, his mental wellness was not there. So therefore the courts should have taken this more seriously to protect these children. But what we see very often is within whether it's CPS or within the court system, a lot of people are focusing on the parental rights. And I don't want to dismiss parental rights because they're necessary as well, But there is no way, shape or form where I can sit here and say that I feel like a parental right should come over a child's right. These children deserve to be put first in every single situation, and if you're not thinking about their wellbeing before every other thing, you're not focused on the parental rights either. That's my opinion. But I feel like it's so hard because in Hope's case specifically, it kind of circles back to this. So after she asks for a divorce, Brock had, like I mentioned, he had started to spiral with his mental health. There were situations where one time he had checked the children out of school and he had taken them to a hotel, and while he had the kids in his supervision, he called nine to one one on himself and he had mentioned that he was going to kill himself in front of the children. And there's things like this throughout. It's I don't even want to say it's a full year, but there's numerous things with his mental health that were brought up to the courts and they still gave him fifty to fifty on supervised visits, and it did her story again, is there's so much more to it, you know, because he ended up going into a rehab center for nine days to focus on his mental health. Because he knew he needed this. This was something that he voluntarily went to and was seeking the help for his mental state. And he's been nine days there, you know, and he was diagnosed at that point with bipolar disorder. And at that specific time, Hope had gotten full custody of the children just because he was not able to have them since he was in the facility. But as soon as he came out, Hope was kind of saying, like, Okay, well, we need to wait a little bit, We need to pump the brakes. We need to make sure that he's in a good headspace before he's just given all his rights back. And so she wanted supervised visits at the least, you know, because she she never wanted to take them from him. She wanted her kids to have this relationship and she wanted him to get better, but he wasn't at that place. And so for them to give on supervised visits right off the bat was something that was hard. But it's something she also had to listen to because she's also in this and doesn't really have a say. She just has to go along with it and kind of like Hope that everything is for the best, and it wasn't so a evening and not even an evening. She had taken her kids to school, dropped them off for school on a Friday, and then it was Brock's weekend to have the children. And then on the after the weekend had come to an end, her kids did not show. Up to school. She went to his apartment to check on what was going on and there was no answer, but his car was in the parking lot, and so she called nine one one to get someone out there to check do a one this check, And at first it was like no one was answering, as if they were going to walk away, but there was actually an officer there who had already kind of like been in contact with Hope before on a different call, so he was like, no, this is probably more serious than you know, other calls that we get. And they ended up busting down the door getting into the apartment where they found both Alec and Lydia and Brock deceased in the apartment. The thought of these mothers and other parents, you know, and it's not just mothers, it's fathers, it's mothers, it's grandparents, who are you know, the guardians of children as well. This is happening too often. But the thought of when I think of Hope and Brandy being told that their children are gone, like it crushes me. And I know that I am in this place where I've been working with them, so I know them and I've grown to love them, and I've grown to love their children who are no longer here. It's horrific, but it also is horrific because there were so many signs beforehand, and there were so many things that if the right steps were taken, they could still be here. And so now Hope and Brandy are both actively trying to make those changes and enforce those changes in the Arizona state laws or courts and in the Michigan state legislators. I'm like, I'm so bad at the court systems like to be on those words, I'm like, I should, I should know the actual correct verbiage when I'm when I'm talking about this. But they are, they are, They're working, They're doing the damn thing right now to try to make a difference for other families, and we've kind of got to be there for them. We've got to be a support system for them and kind of help them through this as well, because not only because it's necessary and because they deserve it and they need it, but because it's the right thing to do. Like this should not be happening at the rate that it's happening to our children. And in most cases, there are cases that have been flagged before you know, they've been on the radar by CPS or throughout the chort systems because of a contentious divorce, or because CPS was called, or whatever it may be. So these cases that we see going through this need to have some changes. I think it's interesting in Hope's case with Brock, him even knowing himself that something wasn't right, calling nine to one one on himself, and still he was trying to let them know something's aren't right with me. I'm having these thoughts, Yeah, this isn't normal. I need help, and they still didn't listen. And that is so frustrating. It is, it really is. And she. There's so much more that I could say and share with you guys right now, but I really want her to be able to, you know, say it from her own perspective, say it from her own side and her story. That's why I'm kind of like I'm doing kind of like an overview, which I feel bad because I'm brushing over a lot of stuff when it comes to Brock. There was more than that. There was the time that she, you know, she did make the call that she was going to be divorcing, and other things happened, and so there's just so much more to it, and I want to give her that space since you have mentioned that you would want to talk with her or else I would be telling it in its entirety, but kind of right now. So those are kind of the overviews, the just of what happened and the loss of these three children, Rowan, Alec and Lydia. And one thing I'll mention, I actually sat down. I've sat down with Hope and Brandy numerous times. At this point, we've kind of done our own I don't know if I want to call them like therapy sessions, but they kind of asked if I could just kind of like sit in while they talk because they're two moms. It's a unfortunate that these two moms have to come together in this way, but knowing that they have each other because they've been through something that is the same is sad but nice for them to be able to have each other in this. And there's so many other mothers, which I'll get to because Hope has started a podcast voices against those side. But there's so many other parents who have reached out and said, thank you for speaking on this, thank you for talking about this. We also went through this and things need to change. So we're gonna talk about Brandy and the stuff that she has been doing. Kind of like I said right off the bat, that is so important in Michigan but needs to go national. So that is her hope. But right now she's fighting as hard as she possibly can to get everything passed in Michigan, and then once it does, that fight does not stop there. It will continue until it spreads. But Brandy has started what is called the Rowan Act that she started to She wrote the Rowan Act and has gone to the Michigan House and read the proposal to everyone. It has already passed the House and now we're just waiting because there's so many steps to get where you need to be for all of this. But her, what the actual hope is with the Rowan Act is that when it comes to parental kidnapping, you will be able to create something similar to the Amber alert, which everyone knows an Amber alert. She wants the Rowan Act to go into place so that when a parental kidnapping happened, you can initiate the investigation right then and there, through law enforcement, through the courts, whatever needs to happen, because this is exactly what happened to her. She was told, you know, he's with his father pretty much, chill out. And guess what. She shouldn't have chilled out, and they shouldn't have been dismissive of it. They should have gone out there right there from the start and done what needed to be done. But because they weren't able to activate and alert, there's the law enforcement's hands were tied. That's the other thing. I never want to just sound like I'm bashing law enforcement because I am so appreciative. I know there's so many amazing officers out there and people in positions to help that do the right thing, and they want to do the right thing. Sometimes you can't. So to make a change, you have to put into act something that can allow them to make that change. And that's what Brandy's doing with this. And so I'm just going to read from she has the Rowanproject dot org I will give everything to Kylie to put in the show notes for you guys, but I'm just going to read this hers from her website so that you can understand exactly what this will be. So, the Michigan House of Representatives has passed the legislation called the Rowan Acts. Like I said, it's already been passed, now it needs to go up. This facilitates issuing amber alerts for children with special needs as well as for children believed to be in danger following a preliminary investigation by law enforcement. This has all been done because Brandy is not sitting still. She's fighting. She's fighting to make a difference right now. She has also created the Rowan So that's the Rowan Acts, but the Rowan Project is really it's going to be a full on nonprofit where she provides resources, help for other families, for other parents in need of situations that are similar to hers, and she has a behind her that is actively working to help, you know, be the push that is needed right now, hope. She has also created the alec and Lydia Act, which she has read the entire statement on her social media, but that is going to be in Arizona, like I mentioned, so it's kind of crazy. The two of them both live in Michigan right now, so they're like an hour away from each other. But Brandy was in Michigan. Rowan was murdered in Michigan alec and Lydia. They lost their lives. They were murdered in Arizona. That's where they lived. But Hope's family was from Michigan, so then after everything happened, she moved there. But she's actively she has traveled back to Arizona to do speeches. She has traveled to try to make the changes that are necessary, and she is working alongside numerous people within the Arizona Safe Children Department and so she created her act that she is going to start pushing up pretty soon. So I think, really what these two moms specifically are doing is just so admirable, and they're really doing what they feel they need to do to honor their children and try and spread awareness. This has been going on for a long time, isn't anything new, But what we're learning through all of this is that there is things that can be done to prevent it, and that's really what needs to happen. And I think with what they're doing how far they're going with it. That's going to change, and it's going to be for the better because less kids are going to lose their lives because of it, and maybe they'll be more of a shift onto mental health and getting these parents the whole thing need just so something like this doesn't happen and continue to happen. Yeah, yeah, definitely, And you're right, I mean, the number is it's very upsetting. So I will talk a little bit about statistics. So phillicide wise, right now in the United States, it's not over five hundred children lost to fill aside each year. That's almost two children a day, for a child a day already, it really is. It's so sad. And the percentage for children who are in custody battles is four to six times higher than those who are not. So it just shows that you know, these children who are experiencing these these homes that have parents fighting between amongst each other, tend to you know, have this happen more so than others a few other things. So in philicide cases, even though we're working alongside to mothers right now, it's very clear that fathers commit philicide, mothers commit philicide, grandparents commit philicide because it is it's the murder of a child by the parent or guardian, and so it's it's upsetting. And fathers commit philicide sixty percent of the time and mothers commit it forty percent of the time, so that it's actually not very different. I feel like you see a lot. No, I don't even want to say that, because I want to say, like, you see so many cases of the father being the one to commit it. But at this point, it's unfortunate. I mean, Kylie, you know damn well as someone who's in this true crime space, how often we're seeing mothers and fathers commit philicide. It's, yeah, it's ridiculous. But so fathers they tend to commit phil side on children aging from like five to nine. They'll do the children who are a little bit older, where the mother commits philoicide from age like newborn to three. And so I feel like you start to think about the mother in a postpartum phase and not even phase, but state that they are going through something and it's I never want to say that as an excuse because it's not, but it's that's what you see. And then these fathers are usually in a very mental health crisis as well, and so seeing these signs, seeing the warning signs and not being dismissive of them is so important in these cases. So seventy percent of philoicide cases are children under five years old. And there are certain areas, not in the United States, but elsewhere as well that are higher. So it's like in South Africa or Southeast Asia. There's certain areas that philicide cases are high as well, But then there's so many places that these numbers are significantly lower. And one of the things that Brandy brought to my attention one of our conversations. So in Australia the number of philicide cases per year is around twenty. Wow. We have five hundred here in the United States, So in Australia it's around twenty. She also mentioned the number in Sweden being significantly lower. I want to say, there was only four philicide cases in one of the previous years. One of the things that Sweden does, and I keep I don't want to say I fixate on it, but I kind of fixate on it, is in their court system. They don't have a single judge making the decisions. They have a panel so that when something is brought up. It's not one person saying this is just a crazy mom. This is just a father who is trying, you. Know what I mean. It's a panel that has a discussion and then moves forward. I feel like I want to just like flip the table and like chose everything, as if it was that easy, you know what I mean. But it's like I see that, and I think that that's something that we should strive for. I know that is unlikely. Our court systems and the way that we have been forever is probably something that is very unlikely to change. But how beautiful would that be if we were to switch that, like make that shift, to have a panel so that it wasn't Because when you think about it, and this is just this is my opinion, you guys, This is just Rachel Spitt in fact facts opinions at you and not specific to either of these cases. But if you I'll speak for myself. I'm divorced. I've had to go through custody agreements. And if I went to the judge and I realized that that judge he just doesn't like me anymore. He doesn't like me because I fought. He doesn't like me because maybe I'm more emotional than another parent in the courthouse. He doesn't like me because I'm not gonna take shit from somebody else. Right, maybe he has this preconceived few with me. You're not supposed to write, but maybe he does. And so if there's a panel, there's other people that are, you know, gonna have this conversation to maybe not just let the judge be like, oh, I just need you out of my courtroom. I don't want to have to deal with you. So I feel I don't know, I really like the ideation because get a group of people together and happy chat, you know, a Sybil chat, And there has to be something that us as a country isn't doing right if there's five hundred versus twenty in another you know, in another country, right, yeah, and I'm sure you know population or certain things obviously play a factor. But still, I it could be one child. It can be one child, and how would you not want to make a difference so that this doesn't happen to another It doesn't need to hit those high numbers. I'm going to read a couple notes. You know I've been I told Kylie at the beginning, I'm a big reader. I haven't read. I haven't read a single thing since I started here. I've just been talking. So now I'm going to read a couple of things. There's so many issues in the system, so we have agencies that often minimize or dismiss danger. They I've talked about parental rights and the fact that there's so many things, and I know it's bigger than just this conversation right now. I know that there's more that goes into it, and I know that there's so many things that probably people want to do and they say, well, I can't do that. You know, that's what that's when change needs to be made. If you feel in your gut that, like I really don't want to give this kid to this person because I know that there's a problem, but I have to, you probably need to make a change. And that's what these parents are trying to do. And that's why we need everyone to rally together to do that. So some workers in these fields are incredible and they are dedicated. Others are not. They're negligent, they turn the other way, and then it creates this devastating consequence for these families. The lack of accountability from these individuals too. When these systems fail is it's actually like humiliating the fact that you know, we have this court system where judges are untouchable. They cannot be held accountable because that's part of their when they're sworn in office. That's one of the things is guess what do your job and no one can come for you. That kind of sucks too, because some of these cases it's been one thing after another that ties back to a certain judge that I truly do believe the person who commits the crime is responsible. But if you were active in that, just like when you see in these cases that we talk about, where you are there, you are accomplice, you know what I mean? Like if you are not, if you are actively dismissing the things that need to be done. It reminds me. Of sin Jon Powell case where Susan disappeared, nobody knew where she was. Her husband, they have these two boys and there's obviously some suspicious things going on, and the court system gives him custody of his children. Even though Susan's parents were expressing that they were very concerned about their well being and their safety. There was some weird things with Josh's dad. It just it should have never happened. Yes, you know, her parents tried to raise that awareness. I'm sad to see how many grandparents are dismissed when in these missing persons cases where it's like, okay, but if you have even the slightest inkling, if you have even something that says, well, he might have done it or she might have been a part of it, they should not have the children. They should not have the children, even if it's like, yeah, well, you know, they've always been a good dad. I don't give a shit. I'm sorry that's aggressive, but it's like not aggressive at the same time, because you have to look at that and make those changes in this case, specifically the. Nine to one one call. I mean, I know that that is like right kind of all after the fact now because we know what happens in Susan's case. But or and in the children's case, it's a worker who is doing everything they can in their power, begging, bugging for help. We can't we can't have these people in positions that are not trained well enough. I stated about the grandparents of jj Valo and how they just something did not feel right. Things just were happening with Laurie. If you guys are familiar, Lorii Valochad day Bell is who I'm talking about. But they were trying to figure out where the grandson was and they had no idea where he was. They hadn't had contact with him, which was very unusual because they were always all pretty close, and then all of a sudden that contact stopped and they were trying to figure out what happened to him and his sister Tyly, and it escalated into something that you can't even. Fallom at the end of the day. But these two kids lost their lives and in a horrific, horrific way, and there was so much more involved as well. But right, yeah, see, but again it was sign. It was people saying like, we need this to be done, we need this. There's something going on, There's something going on. Family members are not oblivious to routine or to change in character. Right, It's like, wow, you know when something is going on with somebody and I feel like it is so easy to just be like, oh, they're probably going through it to be fine. You cannot look at that like you cannot look at it like that. It is It is a huge, huge problem that needs to be changed, and it just keeps me coming back to the fact that it is unfortunate that people in positions to help don't always get to just trust their heart and trust their gut and trust the feeling that they have, because there's probably been so many times where someone said, gosh, I really feel off about this, I really feel like this is really weird. They're right, I really want to look into this. But then. Law wise, physician wise, job, whatever it may be, is kind of restricting them from moving forward, right, And so that's why these changes are necessary. They need to be made so that there isn't those restrictions anymore. One of the other things that I did want to provide in this episode is kind of a plethora of resources because there's so much specifically to these two cases, but in everything that we're talking about here on true crime podcasts, right, But in Brandy's case, there was so much when it came to you know, him being a felon, just abuse, child abuse, things that were happening. When it comes to Hope's case, with you know, the mental health aspect of it, she was abused, there was domestic violence in the relationship. There's so many things. So I want to provide right now a ton of different resources. And I can also send all of this to you because there's a lot of numbers. It's going to be hard to follow. Just you know what, right now, just hit record on whatever listening blackform you're on right now so that you can have this in your phone. So if you are struggling in any way, shape or form with mental health, the easiest thing to do. It's not easy. Let me take that back. It's not easy to choose yourself and to make this phone call, but it's necessary. But the number is nine to eight eight. That is the suicide and crisis hotline. Anyone can call that. It is available twenty four to seven for you guys to call and at any any point of what you're going through. So Hope called nine eight eight, and she talks about it because she called nine eight eight not in a position of wanting to commit suicide, not in a position of wanting to harm herself. She called nine eight eight in a position of pure pain and having no one to call at two in the morning, and the resources that they gave her helped her to make the decision to leave. It's there, it's available, make that phone call. The domestic violence hotline is one eight hundred seven nine to nine safe, or you can text seven four to one seven four one. There's a child abuse hotline because a lot of these cases, friends, family members, grandparents, other parents, whoever start to see that something is happening to these children, whether they see whether they see a shift in character, whether they see someone who is bright and bubbly become introverted and just kind of a shell of a person. So the child Abuse hotline is one eight hundred four two two four four five three, and then the other one that I want to add, and there will be so many more in the show notes, but the domestic abuse Helpline for men and women is one eight eight eight seven four three five seven five four. I want to say I have like fifteen phone numbers that I am going to give you guys, because there is there is help for any thing you are going through. And it's hard. That's why when I first said, like, it's easy, call this number, it's not. We're not naive to the fact that it is hard to make change. So Brandy Morey Poles, like I mentioned earlier, she has the Rowandproject dot org and there's so much information on this website, and so Brandy has a team of people working alongside her. She is creating a nonprofit. But not only does it talk about rowan story. Not only does it talk about the Rowan Act, it provides a ton of resources for anything you're going through, and it also provides help from her, help from her team, and the opportunity to just kind of share your story if you need to with a mother who has walked this unfortunate path that you know, maybe you just need to be heard, and you can have that opportunity at the Rowanproject dot org. Hope putin I actually, so I created a website called Voices against Philicide. It's Voices against Philicide dot odo dot com. And I created this website with Brandy and with Hope, but it is called Voices against Philicides, So it kind of ties into Hope's podcast. But it has Rowan's full story, It has Alec and Lydia's full story. It has all of the different resources that you would need if you wanted to look into their stuff. So it has all the initial news reports of when you know their children were taken. It has the different press conferences that they've gone to, and spoke at. It has the Hope she went to the Assemblies of God conference and she went and did a full speech there in front of everybody. And so all of those links are there for you guys to check out their stories as well. And it also has it'll have this conversation, but it has every single speaking engagement that they've done with podcasters or with different interviewers for whether it's a journalist or interview for YouTube or news source, whatever. And it also has the ability to reach out to both of these moms if you would like to talk with them as well. Hope Putin, like Kylie just mentioned, started a podcast called Voices Against phil Side. She is in her first season right now. And this is. I don't I. Don't know if passion project is the right word. Mission project maybe is the right word, because it's not only is she given the space to talk freely and to share about her children, but she is inviting other parents to come on the podcast and tell their story. She is providing resources on how to be aware if you're in a domestic violent, you know, relationship that maybe you weren't aware and maybe you were just like, oh, I don't know, I never thought of it that way. I didn't know that. If someone was, you know, complaining about having to take me to work, and you know, certain things that are psychological or emotional or mental abuse as well, that are being put off as they're just being rude or maybe they think it's funny whatever. She talks about those kind of signs and what to look for in that who you can call if you need help. She is also going to be talking with other professionals moving forward as well. So this is her space that she has created to be a voice and to keep her children's voices alive and talk about her children. One of the episodes, actually, I real quick, I want to say, the episode that just went out is a conversation between her and her good friend Lauren, who I know, Pylie, you got to meet them. This conversation, I think is so beautiful and so necessary because it is about the grief of a friend. Right. No one knows what to do in this situation. No one knows how to be or how to act, or how to support or how to grieve. Because I feel like so many people are like, how do I help this person? But they're also grieving, they're also hurting, they're also broken with everything that's going on, and I feel like this conversation presents so much in a way that is like how you're able to feel your own feelings and be a support system, and it's beautiful. The friendship that they have is beautiful, and I think that conversation is so necessary. So I highly recommend everyone go listen to that. I learned things even as someone who has like I've spoken with so many family members, I have worked alongside bees moms, and I still learned stuff from this episode on how to approach things in an advocate way, how to approach things in a more respectable way. Sometimes not saying anything at all is better type stuff, you know, So definitely go check that out. And the only other thing I will say about Hope right now, and I'm sure she will be telling all of this to you guys soon, is she actually just finished writing her book. She is going to have a book come out next year, and it is in the editing phase right now, and then it will be sent off to a publisher and she will be bringing that forward next year on the many, many things that we have going on, because this mission is huge and we have a lot of things planned for next year, we will be at the Beyond the Crime Convention in Albuquerque in April, we will be at Crime con in Las Vegas in May, and we will be at Advocacy con in Albuquerque again in September. So we will be all over the place, and I appreciate you. You know, off this platform, I it's hard. I always feel like I'm not giving enough information because I'm like, I find myself withdrawing or holding back in certain areas because I feel like it's their story to tell or it's their information that they should share, and I know that they want to share as well. So I did give just little inklings here and there of everything that's going on, everything that they're doing, and we're sharing their stories to not only remember them, but to fight for change. You did an amazing job. Oh thank you. I'm so excited to be here. I know you guys have probably heard our voices, but it's nice to actually sit down and actually be on an episode with you. This was exciting, It's fighting delightly. About time. We're gonna have to have you come on like Mother like Murder and either sit through aunts telling you a story, or you can come and tell us a story. Okay, we'll do it. We'll do it, or maybe you know, we'll have you do like it right now in true crime and then we'll tell you a story. So it's a mixture of the bulk of us. Yes, that's a few idea. I do like that. Yeah, I love it. How do you feel after your first kind of sit down? I don't good about it. I think it went really well. Conversation flowed, which is good. He did a great job, of course, thank you. Well, I want to go. I want to know. I want everyone to tell you how amazing it was, and then I want them to all go give you five stars and give like Weather, like murder five stars, voices against Osi five stars, all of the five stars, all of the things. Yeah, I love it. Well, thank you so much for having me. I like I said, I've been a huge fan of yours forever and now you're my friend, which is even more exciting. Oh, I love it. So, I love it so much. I get i'd have podcast brains, it's so near to me. But we just have this amazing and community of podcasters that we you know, we bounce. Ideas off of each other. There's a network competition it's all community because it truly does take a village. And you know, despite my primary focus as cold cases, but there are all these other issues in the true crime space that we need to bring awareness to. There's phill aside, there's financial sextortion. There's so many different ones that we all need to be talking about because unfortunately they're ongoing and until we talk about it, it's not going to get me better. Yeah, I think that that's one of the beautiful things when it comes to and it's so weird using certain words, but I do find it beautiful, so I will use that word. We talk about how oversaturated the true crime you know, genre is, but so many people bring so many different things, and that's why this community over competition is so beautiful and amazing because someone else is going to be bringing You're going to be bringing these cold cases, Hollie's going to bring the financial sex sortion. There's so many people, you know, thinking of Jamie Beaty's going to be talking about crimes on trips when you're traveling, how to avoid that kind of stuff. So I feel like there is always something. For someone on how to learn, how to be better, how to grow, how to avoid situations if possible, how to be aware alert all of these things. And it's a good community bill. Part of thank you so much for coming, Rachel. We love you everybooks. Please don't give like mother, like murdered. Hey listen if you having already subscribed solo on Socials. All of that below in the show notes. And I hope you guys enjoyed this convo with Rachel today. Thank you for having me. I'm so excited. I hope you and joyed me talking. I kind of blacked out, so I don't know what I. Said at all. Oh yeah, I have listened to you top forever. It's so weird, just like listening. I'm like, oh my gosh, just. Like listening to you on Apple podcast. It's amazing, so funny. I'm glad you enjoy it. It is so saying. All right, thank you. I will talk to you guys, lady. Thanks Rachel