Episode Swap: Like Mother Like Murder: Heidi Planck

Welcome back to Like Mother Like Murder. In today's episode, we are going to be talking about the disappearance of Heidi Plank, a southern California mother who seemingly vanished into thin air. What happened that evening that Heidi wit missing? And why is no one talking about it? Welcome to Like Mother Like Murder. I am Rachel and I'm Heather. We bring you the good, the badass, and the crime. This is Like Mother Like Murder. Hello everyone, Welcome back to Like Mother Like Murder. Episode one O three three three one O. Three one O three. I'm Rachel and that's Heather over there with the with the awesome intro every single time. She's our little like beat not really beat boxing. What would you call that where you always did like how you would be. Like, Yeah, I wouldn't, no idea. Just awesome. It's just awesome. It's just the awesomeness. I love it. Good morning, Heather. How are you today? You know I'm a bit tired. We had a late night. Uh yeah, we had Well it wasn't like super super late for me. It was super late for you because we had a pretty awesome recording last night with uh Kevin from Where the Weird Ones Are, and it was legit. It was it was legit, you guys. If you guys are not following Kevin on his podcast on his social media's, you guys should do that. It's Kevin Where the Weird Ones Are podcast and we are actually going to be on his patreon. So if you guys would like to go and listen to that, if you're listening to him, go subscribe, show him some love and you know, subscribe to his patreon so that you guys can go here, not only us, you know, on the podcast with him, which was. Awesome, which was awesome. We will gladly record with him anytime. But the story itself, so he told us a true crime story and he kind of split it up into sections so that we could you know, spit out some theories and what we were thinking was happening throughout this and so just the layout was was genius on his part. So go and subscribe to that. Okay, do it, do as you will, Just do it, Just do it, do it. But you guys, I want to just give a little disclaimer or psa for all of you little lovelies. I'm not feeling to you hot at the moment we are here. We are recording because that's what we do for you guys, and we're we're trying to get a lot of recordings done in advance because I'm about to take a week off, that's for sure, to serve it. I deserve it. My family is gonna be here, you guys, so I get to hug on my loved ones coming up in a couple of days, two days actually. But we're getting some recordings out. So even though I'm not feeling one, I'm feeling good enough to come on and tell this story. So just give me some grace, Okay, bear with me if I stumble on my words as my eyes water from I mean, it can't be any worse than like when I just recorded at my best, because oh my gosh, you're so stop it. You know, we all struggle with our thanks Rachel. We all struggle. That's true. Even when we are like out one hundred percent, we're like, what our words? Yeah? What are you drinking over there? I see something? Is that colorful? It's so colorful. I I already had a coffee this morning because my hobby is the best, and he made my coffee this morning. But I just wanted a little pick a me up. Uh, So I got a Passion tea from from Starby's, so just a little, just a little color and just so you guys know, I don't put sweetener, I don't put lemonade. Just give me the passion tea. Yeah. Just it is great as it is. The only thing with it is there's no caffeine. But I actually I'm trying to decrease my caffeine intake. So it's good. But it's a nice It's also hot, so it's a nice like kind of summery morning pop. Yeah nice. I like that, you know what. I've also decreased my caffeine intake signifa cante nice just coffee in the morning, which is not who I am as a person. So it's super super weird. But for the first time ever, you've had coffee and I have not, So yeah, I went. I also went to Starbucks this morning. Look at us, little basic GIRLI is on the pod today. I went to Starbucks and got a medicine ball. And you actually drank it. Hottish, hottish. I did go sleep for two hours, but it was still warm and I heated it up a little bit more it's good in case I tried, I did my best. I did my best. I did my best, and now I'm having coffee on the podcast with you guys. So hopefully my energy level goes from whatever this is right now to normal Rachel status. Well, I also felt like, too, this case is going to get you kind of hyped, right, You've been working on this case for a while. It's a doozy. Yeah, there's just a lot that goes with this, and it's it's one of those ones that you just know, people know things, you know, people did things. Yeah, and so those cases always hurt me so much because she's a mom, and you know, it's like there's no answers, there's no closures, there's no nothing for her son, and it just kills me. So but I mean, if you have if you don't have anything else, we could get into it. Let's get I'm ready, I'm ready for it. You've been talking about this case for the last couple of weeks. I feel like, so let's do this. Let's do it. Okay, So today we are going to be getting into the mysterious disappearance of Heidi Plank. Where is she? Okay? October seventeenth, twenty twenty one, a southern California mother goes out to walk her dog and seems to vanish into thin air. Today we're going to be talking about everything that goes along with you, the days leading up to the day of and the investigation, the search, and she's still missing. You guys need to understand that she's still missing. They do believe that she is no longer with us, but it's hard because without a body and without the actual evidence of them telling us why they believe that, it really leaves it kind of open ended. So October seventeenth is the day that Heidi Plank was last seen. Earlier in the day, she had went to her son's football game to watch him play at his private school. It was coroborated by other people that she was at the game. Many people saw her, one of them being her ex husband, Jim Wayne. He is the father to her son. So they used to be married, they had their one son together, and now they co parent. They ultimately made that decision to split, and at the time of her disappearance, they were on great terms, according to Jim the X and according to other sources as well. Other people said that they did co parent. They did have a really good bond relationship together at this time. So how long have they been separated? Sorry? How long have they been separing? Years? Okay? Okay, So it's not like a fresh like thing. Okay, Okay, yeah, I don't I don't remember if it was six or eight, but they had been separated for a while. Gotch So he says at the game that she was very distracted. She kept just getting up, moving around like she was sitting with him at one point, and then she would go and sit on the other side of the bleachers, standing up, moving looking at her phone. Just antsy is how like he's describing her behavior. And then at halftime, Jim realized that Heidi had left the game, and so to him, at this moment, it was his day to have their son, and their son would be going home with him. So it's not like she left them there, left him there like type of a thing, you know, since she wasn't gonna be the one taking him home. But at that time, the X said he didn't think too much of it, you know, because she was just coming to watch the game and then go. But she didn't stay the entire thing. The entire game. So the thing that did make him uneasy though, was later that night he said that Heidi did not reach out to say good night to their son. She always called or texted, and so she not only did she not call or text, she wasn't answering either. So it was a little off and concerning. But again I think that in the in moments like this, a lot of people are like, Okay, well, yeah, kind of weird, but could be anything. She could yeah, could be right. And one of the things that he said is that, you know, could have been herbie and busy, could have been whatever. He even said that it could have possibly been her traveling to meet up with her boyfriend at the time. So at the time of her disappearance, she was in a relationship with a man named Naim Salim, and it was a long distance relationship. So a little bit about them. So Heidi's in Los Angeles. I should have said that earlier, I think I did. I yea, yeah, So she lives in downy, California, and so she's in the Los Angeles area and Naim was in San Francisco. And it comes out later that Heidi and Naim had actually been kind of like arguing around that time because they weren't able to see each other as much as they like. Yeah, that distance that it's it's our you guys, for people that are not in California. Ye, that's like that's like a yeah, six hour, seven hour drive, depending on what part of San Francisco's in and depending on LA traffic, because. Seriously, we don't have that here. So another thing that added to you know, them not being able to see each other as much. Selene, he actually worked for Mark Zuckerberg, and he is a very very busy guy. He said, you know, he had no plans for her to be coming his way that night, and that when he was trying to get ahold of her, she also wasn't answering. Okay, so that day she also wasn't answering him. And again he kind of makes that excuse or that kind of like piecing things together, you know, you try to tell yourself something so that it makes you feel better. But he said that maybe she was just ignoring him after their conversation about distance and work. Sure, right, So October twentieth, three days after she was last seen, Heidi was supposed to pick up her son from school and In the Dateline podcast Missing in America, her ex husband talks about the fact that he wanted to be at the school when Heidi picked their son up because of just the questionable behavior and like her not responding. Yeah, he was like, Hey, this was out of the ordinary for you know, our normal. Yeah, and you know, I didn't hear He seemingly didn't hear from her like all weekend, right, and she bounced out from the game like it, didn't try to check in with the you know, and He's probably just like, Okay, I need to be there. I need it, Like I've been trying to contact you. I gotta we gotta just like make sure we're still on the same page with everything. Exactly, exactly okay, And so you know, he he claims he knew it was her day, uh huh, and but he wanted to talk with her before because of that, before letting her their son show with her. Yeah, just like everything good. Do you need me to like keep him for another week because you got some shit to figure out? Yeah, exactly. Sure. So he was at the school and Heidie didn't show up to pick up their son. That's when her ex Jim Layne, reported Heidi missing. That's when he knew because and a reoccurring conversation through all of this is her son was her world. And it's like, yeah, they had they had joint custody and he would live out both. But it's like she would never never not called, never, not text, she would never, She. Would definitely not spend three days ghosting her sadly. Yeah, so he knew something was up, so he files the missing person's report. So at this time when he reported her missing, it was time to start looking into where she could be. Where is Heidi? Okay, Well, the first thing that came out of Heidi footage wise is that of her camera at her house. So they were able to get into that see the camera, and she was seen on the seventeenth after she had left the game, she went home and she's seen getting into her vehicle with her little dog seemingly to you know, take the dog somewhere with her. And that's the last time that there's and this. Was after she had right after she had left the football game. Yeah, so she left the football game, she goes home, she gets her dog, and she gets in her range rover to take off somewher onore dog. Okay, and so now here's the first mystery in all of this. Heidie's dog is later found that evening the day that she went missing October seventeenth, on the twenty eighth floor of a sky rise apartment building miles away from her home. What yes, in an apartment complet that's called the Hope and Flower Complex in downtown La. Okay. Yeah, so this is where things get weird and confusing, honestly, because the dog was found. No, Heidi, what. About the car? We'll get there. Okay. So Jim was able to get into Heidie's phone, so you know, he reported her missing. He goes over to the place he's able to get into Heidie's phone and see that someone had actually tried contacting Heidi about finding their dog. Their dog's name is seven. But why was the dog there without Heidi? Right? So friends and family come forward after the disappearance, and they they talk about the fact that they don't know why, like why Heidi would have been there. It's not a place that she regularly would go. It's not really anywhere that they knew she went, ever, and so why was the dog there and why is she not there? So immediately the dog's there although that's not the best thing to find obviously, is her dog without her. At least they know the dog was there, and we have somewhere to start looking into, right right, this building is gorgeous. It is it's current times. The when you look at it, it's just this skyrise beautiful. Like I said, the dog was on the twenty eighth floor. You know that this is a big, beautiful building and it's newer, so it's one of those ones that were built and they're not, you know, not that the older historical looking ones in la or not. But this is like luxury new apartment. So that means that tells me that they probably have camera somewhere cameras. So that's exactly what we're going to talk about. The first thought is where is this camera footage showing the dog or showing Heidi getting into this building? And Heidie's X is in it interview saying that there's no way this dog or Heidi if she entered, wouldn't have been seen because. He picked up something somewhere. You're passing four different types of security. Okay, so you're you're passing you're going in the doors. To get in those doors, you have to have a key card that's a actual human security guard. Then when you get into the elevator, you need your key card to get into that apartment complex and then into your door. So there's a lot and so the first thing is trying to get those cameras right. Well, first they talk to people and no one saw anything. No one remembers seeing Heidi. So they go to the complex manager and ask him for the surveillance, and he wasn't willing to just hand over the surveillance, which is a it's a big problem, you know, which really doesn't matter because eventually a warrant issue. Yeah. I was gonna say, they just ask the cops up du a worm because apparently this guy's jud I mean, maybe he's following some kind of like rule that I can't unless there is like a cop or whatever. But like. Whatever, someone with a dog was found in your building. Guys like something's going on. Yeah. Yeah. So in the meantime, while they're waiting to get you know, the footage and stuff, Heidie's son's birthday came in past and it wasn't it wasn't long after she went missing. But this is when more of her friends and family say that there's definitely something wrong, right, So many people believed foul play or you know, something odd had happened in the first place. But they said, if for some unexplainable reason, she's just up and left that, you know, for one reason or another, Like if she just decided she needed to go that, there's no way she would have missed her son's birthday. Yeah, it was his eleventh birthday. So as as that day came and went, it just left more and more confusion and concern. Obviously, after you do a missing person's report, they do a wellness check at the house. Okay, so after she. Was reported missing, the sheriffs did a wellness check at her house and everything seemed normal. The house was fine. But one of the things that's definitely off in today's day and age is that her phone was at the house. So, like I said, there's the footage of her leaving the house with her dog. So she left her house without her cell phone in twenty twenty one or twenty yes, would you say yeah? Twenty twenty one? No? Right, especially after when you when you think back to the fact that So here's where my brain goes is when her ex talks about her at the game and how she's like looking at her phone and just seems to straw and seems, you know, antsy. So like I can kind of see it, right right, Like maybe if she was struggling and you know, like mentioned earlier how she was texting back and forth with Naim, maybe she goes home from the game and decides, Okay, I need to get out here, just go clear my mind. Okay, that kind of a thing, I say, Maybe I see that. But also like if her son is her world, yeah, and you know, she very they very clearly have a co parenting relationship where they're decent at communicating as a parent in a co parenting situation, it maybe I can see, like I'm gonna go take a five minute walk or a five minute drive and I'll leave my my phone at home, but she's taking her dog. So I mean I don't know, Like I don't know, but you if you plan on being gone for an extended peroeriod of time, even if that is like more than an hour, you bring your phone because something is happening to with your kid who is currently with their other parent, like you would want to know, right, Like, you don't just leave your shit for a long period of time. Nope, you could turn it off, put it in your bag. That's fine, Yeah, exactly, Yeah, and it's not not only that's not the only thing crazy about her phone. The GPS was turned off, so like the tracking. On her phone, and she had to turn that off. Yes, so she turned off her GPS tracking and left her phone at home. She is making she wants to make sure something or someone is not following her. Right, Oh my gosh. So you mentioned earlier about her vehicle. You know they're looking for her vehicle. As I mentioned, So, Heidi lived a very comfortable life. She was in southern California. She had the where she lived was beautiful, Okay, beautiful. She had a new range Rover. Yeah, I was gonna say, range Row, what's up? Those vehicles also have tracking in them, right, and that tracker was also off? What so the detectives investigating the case said that the GPS function in her range Rover had never been set up, so therefore they weren't able to track the location based on that function, which a new vehicle. It's like they did say in one of the sources that you you can set it up, you can turn it off, and it'll still like even if it was set up, if you turned it off, it shows it was never set up, is the point I'm trying to make. So, no matter what them saying it was never set up, it might have been and then it could have been disabled. Yeah, so phone GPS turned off, vehicle GPS turned off, and guess what. Airbuds and an Apple Watch have tracking in them as well, and guess what they're both turned off and disabled as well. Okay, so the way that you said it, she's definitely this is purposeful. But for what why? So although all of those things were turned off in someway or another, conversations start to come up and her family, and from their accounts, nothing seemed off with Heidi. They were talking about how they were just talking to her. She was talking about how she would be going to see them for Thanksgiving, spinning some time with them, visiting. And the point here is that she was making plans. She was planning to go see her family, she was planning to celebrate her son's birthday. Making plans and then disappearing right usually a mix. So this wasn't a I I am so over this life, I'm gonna turn off every locational device. I'm gonna take my dog and I'm driving to Mexico. Like, that's not what this was. This was like a kind of almost And like you mentioned, her husband said, she seemed a little anxious at the football game. She was staring at her phone a lot. So to me, that's saying like this was a like a new development, that like something had happened that made her do these things. She these weren't like premeditated actions of a I'm bouncing from this. Life, right, No, she was not trying to get away from her life whatsoever. So her boyfriend, naime Celine, he did come forward saying that in the weeks before her disappearance, she talked to him and she did say that she had been scared of something. I wish that these text messages like we can see them in like full, because I haven't been able to find them. I don't know exactly the details of what she told nime Uh that she was scared of, but she had even asked him, like wanting him to come out and you know, spend some time there. She was afraid of something. And you know, at this time he was working and he was unable and yeah, so that comes out. Sorry, I thought you were going to say something, so I like my brain, oh went off. Something about Heidi is that she had a position that she had grown into over the years. She didn't have a degree, but over her time working for the company that she worked with, Camden Capital, she had learned and grew and she went from a personal assistant to a bookkeeper. A little about this company because there's a big theory that her disappearance could have been in somehow connect connection. We're gonna we're gonna talk a little bit about this company and the people in this company. Okay, so try to stay with me on this. Jason Sugarman was her employer. That's who she worked for, and that's who she worked with. His father in law is Pete Goober. He's a big time okay. He is the CEO of Mandalay Entertainment. Is the co owner of many sports team Golden State Warriors, the Dodgers, the Los Angeles, the E Sports Club, a mad A Gaming. Okay. When you think like big, big businessman investor, Yeah, big big businessman investor with hands in all sorts of pots, type of like let me let my money make money type of situation. That's him, Yeah, for. Sure, exactly, And so that's she works for him, and she okay, she works for this and like I said, her her ex Jim Wayne, the way that he explains it, I don't feel like he was trying to like belittle her or like talk down about her, but like her position was always a little bit concerning to him because it was like she wasn't she didn't have that background, that training in that she wasn't an account consistent. Yeah, she didn't. She didn't have like an accountant's degree where she learned how to be a bookkeeper. No. Yeah, it's definitely something that if you grow with the come learn who could learn to do for sure for sure. But yeah, I see where he's coming from. So Jim Lane comes forward saying that he was contacted by the SEC on October twenty first, four days after she had went missing, okay, four days after she went missing, and that he had no idea. First of all, he had no idea why, like how they got his He had no idea how they got his contact info, by the way, but they start questioning him on Jason Sugarman and Heiny Plank and the company itself, Camden Capital and so what ends up coming out is that Sugarman had some sort of multi million dollar fraud thing happened against him when it came to the Los Angeles Football club he was co owner of, amongst other things, right, but his partner, so he was partner partners with Jason Galanis, who ended up getting sentenced to fourteen years in prison for money fraud. Okay, shit, listen, this is all crazy. It's it's white collar money privilege shit. Yakay. Yeah. And the only reason I'm bringing this summer here is because so Jason Galenis is sentenced to fourteen years. Yeah, Jason Sugarman is getting questioned and looked at. Where the fuck is Heidi? Okay? Yeah, So it could have absolutely been nothing to do with it. But Jason Sugarman's partner. I'm sorry, but that seems really fucking coincidental when she goes missing and then four days later the SEC is like, hey, what's up with her? I'm sorry, So, you. Know, the he's his partner's locked up for the fourteen years. They're looking at him. When did his partner get convicted? And that way more recently, well. He ends up getting which I get into as well. Yeah, so I'll get into that. But his was actually like right. Before, but not like it wasn't like in two thousand, his current business partner had been okay, Like it was like re okay, okay, oh my god. So you know, and then I need to bring up the fact that Heidi wrote Naim that she was scared of something, and it's not out of question to think that maybe she knew something or something out. Yeah, you know, totally, I'm not because this is the thing, like, if there's an if there's nothing like, okay, let you you have to take the different sections of her life, Like let's look at her personal life, Like she has her ex husband and her son, but seemingly that relationship is fine, right, She's she's not indicating that I'm scared of my ex husband because x y Z. She has her boyfriend. She's not telling her boyfriend I'm scared of you. Right, So then where where else does she Where else do you look either her job or or some I mean, of course, there's always the possibility that there was some random thing that happened. She randomly witnessed the crime go down, and now like the people are after her or something like that, but like the likelihood of that is a lot less than something that is already like a part of her life. Right, So like, yep, so I did just while you were doing that, I did just look up So galainis he was charging sentenced in twenty sixteen, so this happened a few years later. But you know how I mean, if you follow literally anything at all when it comes to these big fucking people, ye, these take way too long. Oh yeah, and they're getting all of the evidence and staff for sure, every single thing, make for sure. Oh yeah, for sure, that doesn't that's not a long time ago for no, for financial crimes and looking into those investigations like not at all, that's not like one time at all. So a little bit I mentioned how the LAPD had showed up to go into Heidi's house. Uh, they were guns drawn and there were so many people. It's quite the scene, honestly, and it makes you think they're definitely looking more for more than. Just Heidi and guns drawn and drawn. Into her house with over twenty people, like multiple, multiple people. You know they're they're looking for something big time, and it has to be obviously in connection to her disappearance. But what is it that they're looking for? And and and I'm aware that many people go to the scenes of missing persons home and stuff like that, but this just seemed more so like, yeah. Thats there's something more going on. It wasn't a typical. We're gonna go do a well wellness yeh okay. So, during this search in the home, like I said, there's over twenty people don't know exactly, but they they say maybe they're looking for documents or anything that was business related. Sure, they weren't sure if they were going to find a body, but they said that was a possibility as well. Either way, they do a sweep, they take some things from her place, and then they end up getting her laptop and her phone from her ex husband who had those things from when she first witnessing. Right, he went over there, and he was trying to figure some stuff out. Sure, and so Jim Wayne in an interview says that he got numerous phone calls, like I had said, the SEC's calling him, but also he got other phone calls from an anonymous man claiming to be Heidi's boss and asking for her laptop and her phone and so claiming to be sugarman. Yeah, well so or someone else that works for Sugarman. Yeah, yes, he got numerous calls, and I'm about to get to another one cause Sugarman was there for Sugarman. Sugarman, Sugarman was there for it, okay, But he didn't give him over to them, obviously, he did hand them over to LAPD when they come back to get those. But he says that one of them, when he was on the phone with Jason, Sugarman's assistant, that he could hear Sugarman in the background showing only concern over getting the laptop, not any inklin of of concern for Heidi herself. Okay, apparently there's a reason for this, right, there has to be. Yeah, if he's like, if he is concerned about hit the laptop over the fact that someone who has worked for him for seemingly years, that's not Yeah, even if you're an asshole, that's like a little bit much. And here's why he says that the assistant says in the phone call when you know with Jim, is that Heidi took money from the company, and that Jim comes forward expressing that the LAPD they were able to get into her account. So, yeah, this assistants on the phone, saying that Heidi took money from the company and that's why Jason Sugarman wants the stuff back. Okay, but in an interview, Jim Wayne comes forward saying that they were able to get into her account and confirm that she did not have this money that they're accusing her, you know, accusing this missing woman to have had I'm sorry it from them or anyone at that point. Yeah, if if Heidi had stolen money from the company and the boss wanted to do something about it, why wouldn't the boss call the cops and the cops then retrieve the laptop because then he would have to hand it over. So no, that's not buying it. Yeah, So this one's gonna really get your blood pump and mighty ear. So another thing that's just super suspicious, stupid, fucked up, and you know, honestly the reason why I just side eye everyone in life. But there's a video of Jason Sugarman that has him showing up to Heidie's house and leaving muffins on her doorstep. And this video came out obviously after her disappearance. I don't have the exact date it was maybe a couple to a few days after she went missing, but he was definitely aware that she was missing. So what are you doing? You know? Okay, So we're gonna kind of like change directions back and we're gonna go back to the warrant. Okay. So although the apartment complex did not willingly give up, you know, any information or video footage of the night of Heidie's disappearance, obviously the police were able to serve a warrant and obtain things that, you know, they needed anyway, So they take the camera footage and they start to go through that during that time. Fifteen days later, fifteen days her Range Rover is found parked in another Los Angeles parking garage only blocks away from the apartment complex that Heidie's dog was found at. And then video comes out that Heidi was indeed at the Hope and Flower complex the night of October seventeenth, the night she was last seen by her son an ex husband, in the night that someone had found her dog on the twenty eighth floor of that complex. But at this point it didn't come out from the lapd or from the Hope and Flower. It came from a friend of Heidie's who was doing her own investigation. Oh right, thank god, I just got goosey. I'm saying it because I love this girl. First of all, these are the type of friends you need in your life. Shout out to friends like this who are bad good at investigating and have that drive to do it and are willing to put that out there when the cops have not even like come on. Yeah. So Heidie's friend Natalie was going around to local businesses asking to see their surveillance videos from wherever and a convenience store gas station camera. There she was. There was Heidi in the same outfit she left her home, seen you know from her camera from her house with her dog seven kind of like outside of the Hope and Flower complex alley wise like kind of like not yet in, but you see her right there, noting her dog. The problem we have now is that when Jim Wayne went to receive their dog from the apartment complex, the couple he got the dog from explained that to get into the building, like I mentioned earlier, you have to use a card multiple times, you know, to enter the door, then you pass the guy, then you get into the elevator, then you go So if you have to do all of this? Did she have a card or was she with someone had a card? Right? A resident of the complex talks about how there was quite the party scene and it comes out that many people saw Heidi that day and that she was there. What Yeah, remember the whole thing that we say every single episode of if you see something, say something, that's when stuff like this matters. So what comes out is some of the footage from inside of the complex and they do get a visual on Heidi inside the complex and some of the individuals that she was with. So they have quite a few people that they needed to start questioning and looking into based on the belief, you know, that there was a party or a gathering of some sorts at the complex. One of the things that her friend Natalie has to say, again you know, the one that went digging and found the video, is that there's no way Heidie's going to a party dressed in jeans, t shirt and with her dog. Yes, just not who Heidi was as a person. So it's it was very concerning to her at that time, like even if she went there for a reason, because obviously she's there, we know that she's there, right, Okay, But the thing is is even if she went there for a reason, Yeah, it wasn't to go party. This still is a party. Still isn't adding up? Like who brings their dog to a party? Who goes to a party without their phone? Okay? And yeah, if she is the type to dress up for a party, like no, that I mean, that's no. And but the fact that there's a party going on is potentially good because then you have a lot of people who are in and out who could have potentially don't. Want to talk. Yeah, a lot of people who don't want to talk. And here's the here's the thing is like if she went there for whatever, we're we have a lot to talk about. So but like if she went there for whatever reason, say she turned off her tracker, say someone said I need you to go over to this place and pick something up for me type thing. Yeah, right, and she but but no one can know, so turn off your this, this, and the right. You know. So if she did something like that, yeah, she's not gonna get dressed up to go over there and get something. So I it's so hard for me to believe that she went over there for her own sort of recreational Uh. Yeah, no, time no, you know, I'm not buying that. Yeah. No, she was on a mission. Whatever that mission was, I don't know, but she was. The mission was not I'm going to a party. This part sucks And this is the main kind of, like you'll know, theory of what could have happened. So based on everything that police and investigators have come out with, the main theory here when it comes to Heidi and her disappearance and believed death is that Heidi overdosed at this complex. And I know, I know, but you'll see, because other people were doing drugs and you know, participating in illegal things. The phone call for help for Heidi when it happened, and the reason they see her go into the building and not come out of the building is that there's evidence, there's DNA evidence that leads to Heidi being put into the trash chuote at the complex, meaning her body would have been taken out with the trash and taken to a landfill. Stop it. It's so freaking awful to think about. Why do they think it's an overdose though? And we're we're not gonna be able to find that out until we have, you know, her body to do something. Do they have someone saying she was doing drugs at this party. Do they have someone like, what's going on here? I don't have any of that information whatsoever. I'm going to talk about where some of this. I'm gonna talk about where some of this comes from. But no, I know, I know it was like bomb drop. Let me switch gears right here. But the thing is is, like the evidence at the trash shoot as well, is like that's why they they believe that she's no longer with us, you know, But it's not came out exactly what that is. So we'll get into some more of that. That's you know, all of it's awful. They're trying to piece together what in the shit is going on, you know. So they're able to figure out based on the schedule and the day that she was there, they could find which routes or which agencies did the trash pick up in where they were taken, and they have searched for Heidi with no luck in any of these places. They actually had to call off the search at one point because of all of the rain that was happening in La and it just you know, left with no answers. When it comes down onto the hotel or not hotel, the complex itself, the apartment complex. You know, there's no footage or I just wish I could read all of the questioning for whoever they talked to you so far. But it's the fact that you know, it did come out. There was a party that night. Heidi was seen at the apartment complex going in with all of these people, you know, and many residents come forward talking about how the Hope and Flower complex has a pretty huge party scene and there was a lot of illegal drugs going in and out of this place. And so whoever was in there with her at this time, they either all made some sort of freaking pact to not talk about it, not give any information. And that's that's what I was talking about earlier. Is so if all of these people are doing things or selling things or you know, using. These being illegal whatever it is activities. Yeah, yes, that that's why even if even if she went there to to get something or use something, I don't know. But the thing is is that they didn't want to call the cops because they don't want to get wrapped up. She passes, and then they make this plan to go and. Cover it up. Here's my question, So you said, there's there's footage of her because I just I'm having it such a hard because. It is, where's the footage of her getting to a trash shoot? Well no, no, but I mean yes, But my question is is like, Okay, they have footage of her like going into the building like with these people, seemingly, but like were they together or was it one of those situations where it's like, oh, uh, you know, I just finished walking my dog, I'm gonna walk into this building and I happened to walk in at the same time as all these party goers. Because like, I don't I find it. It's hard for me to see an obvious like I don't know Heidi. She has a whole personal life that maybe we're not aware of, but it's hard for me to see her, uh, just going to this random place that she's never been before, taking her dog with her, which is just so weird, weird, Like let's say she was like, let's let's let's play Devil's Advocate for a second and say Hidi was going through a really hard time. Maybe she wanted to experiment with drugs, and maybe she wanted to go to a party where there was drugs. Why would she bring her dog, right, That makes bureau sense to me, It really does, like the and so like what's more likely to me is she saw her dog as like a source of anxiety reducing thing. I'm about to take a drive from Downey to downtown LA. I'm gonna bring my dog with me because I have to do this shady thing I have to. I don't know. Maybe my boss is asking me to pick up drugs. Maybe my boss is asking me to drop off these documents. Maybe my boss is saying we need to meet here and we need to talk about this very you know, blah blah blah thing. I see it as a lot of other possibilities other than like she's going to party, like you know, I just don't see this. And there's just way too much coincidence of her being nervous earlier in the day, the SEC calling her ex a few days later. I have a hard time seeing that all is a coincidence, that this death wasn't planned right right, and so not a freak accident that happened at a party because of drugs. I am going to talk a little bit about you know how you said maybe she was going there for herself to get something possibly. I'm gonna talk a little bit about Heidi and some of her not not mental, just some struggles. Okay, So we're gonna get into to that because she has gone through some moments in life. She went through parspartum after having her son, and she's she's had some moments where she's needed some help. And yeah, so we're gonna talk about that. But with all of that said, Okay, everything that I've told you so far, there's there's pieces, yeah, but there's still no Heidi. There's no factual evidence one way or another, and it's still unsolved. So looking at all of this, there's a lot of different angles that people you know, have gone with what could have happened. So I'm gonna touch on them briefly. And this is all alleged. Jim Wayne. Okay, people looked into Jim Wayne because. Obviously he's sure. You do that's what you do. You look into who's close and you know they had a good relationship from his words. But a couple things to think about. Jim Wayne went to court days after her disappearance to get full custody of their son. His reasoning behind this is he needed to get his son into therapy because of how distraught he was over his mom missing. Okay, but just literally like a couple of days, a few days, that's really fast. I also don't know how you can't do that. If you have why Yeah, if you have partial why are you not? I mean maybe it was what maybe they had a custody arrangement where like the physical custody was split, but then like she had basically I don't know what the word is, but like power of attorney over any of his medical stuff, Like that's possibility, but I mean maybe I don't know how that works. Yeah, Okay, So another thing that we see is people inserting themselves into cases, you know, sometimes when they're guilty of something. And he's the one who filed the missing person's report, he's the one who went and got her stuff immediately, he did a bunch of interviews. But again, that's also signs of someone who cares. Yeah, that seems like regular behavior to me. For Yeah, absolutely, I personally I don't think he was involved whatsoever. I'm truly at a loss of where my brain goes. But one of the things, so I know you had talked about drugs and stuff like that, So okay, Heidi. She when they were married, they had their son. Heidi did struggle after her son was born and then went through a really bad postpartum and some other sources, some other friends come forward saying that she really didn't even understand it, which the majority of us don't. Been there, done that. Go listen to our postpartum episode We Got You. It's one of those things where you start to question every single thing. Oh am, I bad mom? Why do I feel this way? Why do I feel that way? And it's so unfortunate that, you know, the conversation doesn't take place more often to make mothers feel supported, and you know, just. That affirmation, yes, yeah, that affirmation exactly that like, I know you don't know what you're feeling, and that's okay because the majority of people women who go through this postpartum they also don't know what the fuck this is and how to deal with it. And that's that's and it's okay not to understand it, you know, almost like embrace the chaos that you will not know and you won't understand it, and it takes many different forms and it can change from one day to another, and you know, that's okay like the like yeah, yeah, I mean seriously, go listen to our postpartum episodes because we talk about it a lot. But yeah, well and so so one of the things when it comes to like drug use and over the counter or prescribed or retrational whatever. So her friend Natalie, the one I had talked about earlier, said, so, Heidi had adderall and sure that that's literally the only thing that she knew that she would take that was prescribed to her. Huh. And it's like other than that, she's like, no, like this time worked, this mom came and took care of her baby. That was what she did. Yeah, And she's like anything else else was whether it was legal or just you know, like she did not do those things. Yeah. But one of the things that I did want to touch on because Jim Wayne talks about he talks so much about how Heidi was talking or how she was acting at the game. You know, she seemed manic, she seemed you know, not herself. So one of the things he talks about is that Heidi had a mental breakdown. She had this manic episode when her son was younger, when they were still married, and she like ransacked her son's bedroom. She climbed out of the window, she ran out of the house, hopped the fence in the backyard, and she was found by the police next to a circuit breaker where she's just like flipping all the switches on and off. Okay, And you know, so after that, she ended up checking herself into a mental health facility. Sure she didn't stay very long. Her ex says that you know, Heidi didn't didn't want to stay there because she was scared, and that she said she was getting assaulted there, and she said, this breaks my heart because it's like you could just tell she's she's going through it at this moment. But she said that she didn't know where she had gotten her c sectionscre because she had no kids. So it's just so obvious at this time that she was struggling. Okay, So the reason I'm bringing this up is could this have been another moment that Heidi was really struggling mentally? She tells NIM that she's scared of something. Her ex husband sees her visibly. You know, she's like uneasy and like just like what is going on? And so you know, but the other thing. That I want to just say very quickly about that is I am obviously what is that it's on criminal They used to say, she's not a psychologist, but she has done a lot of research about this, so we're gonna let her talk about it. I'm not a psychologist, and I've done some research, but not like a lot. The breakdown that she had after her son was born that you know, the catalyst for that obviously is the birth and then the crazy amount of hormones that are going through your system. Your body is literally like trying to recover from all sorts of trauma, like you've just been through it. So that now, in general, yes, it's possible that if you have a diagnosis, let's say a bipolar let's say schizophrenia, that yes, you could go into these episodes without a trigger like something like it could just happen. But even with these mental disorders, a lot of times stress induces this at a higher rate or makes it more intense. Okay, and as and now let's say that Heidi doesn't have a diagnosis actually of anything other than some postpartum shit, which which we know that put let let it be said, postpartum after like a year doesn't just stop. No, postpartum will stay with you right, But but it seems that there's there hasn't been a repeated history of episodes, right, like seemingly. So what it makes me think is something stressful in her. Life, something triggered, triggered. The possibility that maybe she maybe something she did this was more I'm not gonna say, like, I don't want to say like self inflicted, but like something stressful was triggering this behavior. This wasn't just her flying off the handle out of nowhere. Something stressful was triggering this behavior. Yep. Yeah, you are psychology professional in my eyes. Yeah, thank you. I'm Rachel Si. Yeah, that's all you need to be in life. So, you know, they they looked at the ex husband, of course. So another person that they looked at was her current boyfriend, Naim Selim. He was in San Francisco. There's no trace of him coming this way whatsoever. So nothing else that would point to him whatsoever. Okay, sugarman, her boss, sketchy mother, maybe sketchy motherfucker again, don't come for me, dude, It's I'm just man. I'm just reading. Well, did him in jail now? So whatever? Sometimes when people want things covered up right, not to be found out, they do some stupid shit. Yeah, And although I you know, I haven't seen any reports or anyone coming forward that Sugarman himself was at the Hope and Flower Hotel that night, doesn't mean he couldn't have had anything to do with it. He's a rich dude. Rich guys have some resources, right, I mean. Come on, someone could have told Heidi to go to the hotel for some reason to get something or pick something up, and then this happens again. I don't know. I did. Right now, want to touch on the fact that, you know, earlier when I was talking to sec contacted her ex gym and was trying to, you know, ask questions about Sugarman and Heidi, And so I did want to update you guys and let you know that the Securities in Exchange Commission charged Jason Sugarman, this financer, big wig dude, with directing a fraudulent scheme to gain control over two registered investment advisors so that he and others could steal forty three million dollars of client funds to purportedly invest in Native American tribal bonds. Okay, so he did end up getting charged for stuff, and it does just make me think if he was possibly involved somehow in any of this related to her disappearance, because there's just so many Well, she was his bookkeeper exactly, and she definitely she definitely. You don't work in that business and not know things you know you don't and so it's that just that's up in the fact that the SEC. But she reached rot the fact that the SEC got in touch with her husband, yes, her ex right asking about her specifically means that there is evidence they out there that they have her name on file somewhere as someone who has access and or touched and or been a part of that. That her thing house, her house is under the Camden Capitol, like that is part of her physical address, is a part of his business. Yeah, it's it's wild. So I just can't don't. Get involved with these white collar guys. They may be rich, but they. Did just don't do it good, don't do it. Damn. I don't think we've ever covered like a like a white color like thing like this before. That's crazy. Yeah, stay away from him. So the the last thing you know is the thought of her going on her own volition, you know. But like like I said, her family and friends said that she was in a good headspace and that she she wasn't using whatsoever she like I had mentioned her friend Natalie did talk about the adderall. That's something she had had, you know, and so like even if she went there to pick up some other stuff like or not other stuff, but like more adderall. Maybe I don't know, but it's it's crazy because we should know nothing from that day should be hidden whatsoever. Every single thing from that day should be out in public knowledge at this point, you know. But my still my help. What I always try to give the benefit of the doubt in that situation is that like the cops have all of it. This is just always my hope that they have all of it, but they can't and won't release it because because they're trying to get answers and they need that to play that close to the vest so that the people who are responsible aren't aware and they can catch them because they don't know that they know. Kind of situation. I always hope for that. But it's like what I what I keep thinking is with this apartment complex, you need a key to into the building. There's a there's a physical person. You probably need a key in the elevator to allow you to a certain floor. You need a key to get into a room once you get to that floor. Now, obviously there's not gonna be cameras inside each individual apartment complex, but those elevators, there's there's gotta be cameras on the elevators and or in like around different levels where the elevators get off. There's gotta be like cameras in the lobby that show like people getting on and off the elevators. This is a newer luxury place, and one of the things about that area is what is going to draw people to a building one building over another, especially in downtown LA where shit can get crazy, is increased security. Right. Is, if I'm choosing an apartment in LA, I'm choosing one, and these two are exactly the same in terms of luxury whatever whatever, I'm picking the one that has cameras and security everywhere. Yeah. Absolutely, So it's like the there has to be more infirmation, right, there has to be, and I'm just hoping that there is. And it's just like if it the cops have it and they're just holding it for good purposes, not because they're allegedly getting paid off by a multi million dollar capital investor. We hope to believe that way, right, So it all comes down to the fact that her body has not been found. Fine, they're unable to do an autopsy in the first place until obviously they have a body to see if anything was in there, because like if she did get something, and if they're claiming or people are saying that it was an overdose, like say she took something that wasn't supposed Like obviously we hear too many times of like things being like laced with fentanyl or right, and it's like, so if something like that did happen and it was in her system, yeah, the only way we're gonna find that out is by finding Heidi. So where is she and why is no one talking? That is so crazy. I also wonder, like, I mean, I know that her ex went and picked up the dog, went and picked up seven So maybe any evidence that would have been on the dog is no longer there because it has been contaminated by the fact that the husband picked it up and the dog was staying at different house. But like the dog was at the scene. Check the dog's pause, check the dog's fur, check the dog's leash, like that's that's evidence from the scene of the crime. Like are we checking that, Like we're not overlooking things. Here hopefully not, Yeah, hopefully not. But that's it. That's you know all I got you guys on Hi. I know, I'm so sorry. I wish I wish that it ended differently, and it's it sucks because my heart just goes out to her son, who you know, everyone speaks so highly of Heidi and his just special connection. She loved him and loved being his mom, and my heart just breaks for that boy right now. But you guys, if you have seen anything, if you have any information regarding the whereabouts of Plank, please contact the Los Angeles Police Departments Missing Persons Unit at two one three nine nine six one eight zero zero, or if you want to remain anonymous, which you can, you can call the Los Angeles Regional Crime Stoppers at one eight hundred two two two tips one eight hundred two two two eight four seven seven, or go to the website to LA crime Stoppers and you guys can report something there. Stop keeping these things to yourself, you know, like this doesn't Yeah, if you were there and you were using and abusing and doing whatever, it is maybe you made the fucked up decision to help try to cover up something that you didn't mean to happen. I'm not saying this is reality, but if you made that decision, go to that anonymous line and help to bring that closure or to bring those answers for your family, you guys. So that's it. That's all I've got for you guys this week. It just Ugh Man, Yeah, crazy, crazy. I'm Rachel. That was You're right, that was like, that was so okay. I know that I have no better words than to limit. That's a head scratching, Yeah, that's that and kind of a blood boiling because in this day and age, in a place like Ala, like there's so much shit like this's there's no how how right. It's so frustrating, and like you said, for her, for her son, and even for her for her ex husband, who Yeah, I agree. I don't think he had anything to do with it, like it like she deserves way more. There's no reason that more than what two years later, two and a half years later, pretty much at this point that there's not an answer to this. That's ridiculous. Yep, I agree, one hundred yep. Good job, good job on that one. That one, that one was definitely different, I feel from a lot of the things we've done. Obviously we've covered, we've covered missing mothers before, but this one is is it is, it is very different. Well, just all those theories and all the ideas of how, you know, the how people with that fuck you money can just get away on certain things, and I you know, we don't know, we don't know if that's what happens. Let but I'm sorry, that's too big of a coincidence right there. Yeah, I agree. So that's it, you guys a couple of things before we sign off. I just want to say I feel like we haven't said it in a long time. If you guys have a request for us, if you guys have a case that you guys would like us to talk about or cover, please either find us on our socials at like underscore Mother Underscore, like underscore, Murder. I can't say the word murder anymore, guys, murder. W we should change our name like mother like water. But go there onto our socials and you can either you know, message us we are really active in our chats, or you can email us at like motherlike Murder at gmail dot com. You can also go to our website at like motherlike murder dot com and there's a way to chat with us there. And you know, if there's anything that you're like, oh my gosh, this is wild. You guys, have you seen this? Please do? I know, Heather, I haven't sent it to you yet, but we did just get a request from Ashley o G. Ashley sent us a you know, have you seen this? Have you done this? You need to do this, Okay, so I'll send it your way, my dear, but you guys please go and do that. And we you know, right. Now, at the time that you guys. Are listening to this, Heather and I are getting ready for crime con So. That's another thing. If you're not all. Already following us on our social media Instagram, specifically, go there, follow us there because that's where we're gonna you know, we gotta show off up in Nashville in crime e Connie. What's that? Oh? One month, you guys, one month. Exactly one month. Baby from our recording date, not from. You guys recording. When this comes out, it'll be like wait, yeah, yes. Yeah, so exciting. So go in follow our Instagram so that you guys can just join us on all of the greatness that's gonna be happening. We're gonna be meeting so many people, learning so much, and just hopefully just living it up every single second in that true crime community because from what we have been a part of and from what we have already gained, it, I just it's unreal at the That's all I can say about it. So looking forward to that. All right, Well, anything else, Heather myight. Dear, no, no, just again. Great job on this episode, Rachel. It was definitely more than the hype. You had been talking about it for a bit and all I knew I didn't know much about it, which is crazy because it's like literally right down the street from me and it's so recent, but I hadn't heard about it before. I mean, I knew the name, and I knew it was a mom who had gone missing, but I didn't know all the circumstances. So you did a great job covering that, and I hope that sooner rather than later, we'll be able to do an update on this episode and with some answers and some justice for. Heidi, something I will say right this very second, because now that I'm thinking about it. Why was this not in my notes? Maybe I need to put it back in there, or maybe it's just for any of you guys that stay this long. So another thought that is that could be, you know, is if the sec or people were going for Sugarman and she was afraid. Pray to God that woman's in witness protection right now and just being taken somewhere that she's saying safe until everything's done, and then she gets to go home to her baby. So that's another possibility. It's not very likely and it's not high up there, but guess what we hold on to any ounce of belief that you know. I'll take it. Yeah, Yeah, I would be ecstatic, right like that's that's that would be great. Yes, it would all right. We will talk to you guys next Tuesday. You guys, we freaking afford you. Thanks for listening again. We will chat soon. Can't love you Bye, Hey, love you Byetta in the