MISSING: Jill Rosenthal: A Conversation With The Fronczak Files Podcast

Welcome to Primetime Crime. I'm your host, Kylie. Let's talk right now in true crime, and then together we are going to work on warming up some cold cases. Let's go. Hey, guys, welcome to this week's episode of Primetime Crime. It's Kylie. We are going to do a few housekeeping things and then we're going to get into right now and true crime, which is honestly going to be pretty short this week, and then we're going to get into the episode. So I had the opportunity to be part of a You Should Be Here series which is Cases That Haunt Us and it is officially launching on October twenty fifth, which is Saturday. And this is a collaborative podcast podcasters give back. All proceeds that are made from this podcast are going to be directly donated to the Jason Landry search Team. For those of you who are not familiar, Jason Landry what missing in December of twenty twenty. He was twenty one years old, a student at Texas State University. He was in a single car accident and from there it is like he literally vanished from the face of the earth. So his family has been very very present trying to spread the message that Jason is missing, trying to get his name and face out there and through that in their search for Jason, they have established the Jason Land Research Team and I am thrilled that this is where the proceeds from this you should be here at collaboration, are. Going to go. So keep an eye out for that October twenty fifth, which is Saturday. You'll have all weekend to binge all of the episodes. And like I said, the name of this series is Cases That Haunt Us, and we as podcasters are each going to be covering a story of a case that truly haunts us. I am doing two cases that I have previously covered on my podcast before, Shana Jara and Kirk Douglas Gaskin. The reason I decided to do them was because A they truly do haunt me, and B they need more attention on a higher scale. We need more eyes and ears on these cases because they are both cold cases. And the more people. That listen, the more new listeners that come in because of this series that we're doing, the better. So I wanted to very much share these two episodes and share their stories because they are very important. So keep an eye off for that it is coming very very soon and you will get to hear from a lot of different podcasters in the true crime community. Other thing I want to touch on real quick is some of my podcasting friends just released Missing in Hushtown season two, which is about the disappearance of Bethany Markowski. Rachel and Heather who hosts Like Motherlike Murder, They have mom cast productions. They collaborate with Jules and jen from a Fireeyes Media on this project. And let me tell you, the first six episodes dropped and I listened to them all. In one day. It is such a compelling story, but also the kind of story that is going to frustrate you and you're going to scream at your phone or whatever you're listening to it on because you're going to be so frustrated. But they all did such an amazing job putting this together. Season one of Missing and Hushtown was about the disappearance of Jennifer and Adriana Wicks, and season two is all about Bethany Markowski and everything that's gone on in her case in her disappearance. She's still missing and what the team is doing with Bethany's story is telling us everything everything that they know, everything that they've been able to uncover, and it's amazing. So please go give Missing and Hushtown a follow. If you haven't listen to season one, listen to season one and that will enrage you, and then. Listen to season two because it takes. A village, truly, and I am so so proud of these four for pulling this together and sharing Bethany's story in a very victim centered and ethical way as they always do. So so proud of all of them. So now that I got all of that out of the way, we're going to get into a little right now in true crime. Like I said, there's not really a ton that I. Am going to talk about that way, we can just get into today's episode. But there is a nine year old missing girl out of California and her name is Melody Buzzard and she was reported missing just earlier this month after school administrators had her school noticed that they hadn't heard from her in over a year. Yes, that's right, a whole year. So the timeline on this one for me is a little bit confusing. It seems that Melody was with her mother most recently on October seventh, is when they have a potential sighting of her with her mom, but it doesn't seem like she's been in school leading up to this time in about a year. So she went on a road trip with her mom, Ashley, and they believe that she went as far east as Nebraska, and then Ashley returned home to their Santa Barbara County home and Melody was not with her for whatever reason. The school finally decided that it's been about a year, we should probably say something, and then they formerly launched a investigation into Melody's disappearance. On October fourteenth, they completed a search warrant of the home. It is also said that her mom has been uncooperative with investigators. And this one is just a total head scratcher. I'm not really quite sure of all of the different circumstances. If there are other family members that can vouch for her being around, can vouch for her mom's relationship with her, and maybe help us understand a little bit as to why she wasn't in school for the last year, because that's just a little odd as well. I don't know. This one is going to be interesting. I will be sure to try to keep you guys updated on it. If there are any developments in it, I will let you know. There is a picture of Melody that is being shared on social media. That picture was taken about two years ago, so she could look a little bit different, a little bit older, so keep that in mind. But this girl could be anywhere. If she was on this road trip with her mom. We don't know exactly where they went, who they visited, what states they stopped in, the reason for the road trip. She did have a rental car that has already been returned, so we don't really know much of anything other than that. But I will be sure to keep you guys updated if there are any new developments in this one. All right, last thing I want to talk about. If you have Hulu, you guys have got to watch The Murdaw Death in the Family series because it. Is so good. The casting out of the park. The guy that plays Elec Murda is ridiculously so close to him. I almost forget sometimes that I'm not watching the real story unfold. It's great. I highly recommend it. I think they did a really really good job kind of getting all of the details right. There are some things. That timeline wise don't aren't accurate. Like they show Gloria Sadderfield, who was the Murda's housekeeper. They show her still alive. When the voting accident happened where Mallory Beach was unfortunately killed. Gloria had died the year prior, but she is a very important part of the story, and I know that they did it because they wanted to show that she really did have this very close relationship with the murdas she was another member of their family. So I do highly recommend that you guys go check it out. There are a few episodes out now, and then they are releasing episodes every Wednesday all the way up until the finale of it, which I believe is in November sometimes, So definitely go check it out. Highly highly recommend. And I think it's amazing that Mandy Mattney started researching and talking about the Murdahs and now she has a whole Hulu series based on all of the events that transpired and it's just really well done. So props to her and props to everybody that was involved in this for doing a great job at getting it right and trying to make it as accurate as possible. So we are going to. Go ahead now and get into today's episode, which is an interview style episode where I talk with Paul Jack Franzac and Tracy Hastings, hosts of the Franzac Files podcast, and they were really amazing to talk with and I have become an avid listener of their podcast, and I highly suggest that you guys also go check their podcast out. This interview is just a little slice into all of the hard work that the team over at The Franzac Files is doing, and I'm truly honored that they were able to come on the podcast and that they're going to be able to share this whole decades long mystery with you guys as my listeners. Because there is power in numbers, and the more I say it all the time, the more eyes and ears we have on these specific cases, the more exposure they get, the more likely it is that we're going to get resolution. So, without further ado, I present to you my interview with the hosts of The Franzac Files today. I am honored to be joined by the hosts of the podcast. The Fronzack Files. Season one is now officially complete and the team is diligently working on season two as we speak. I'm honored to welcome to the podcast Paul, Jack Fronzac, and Tracy Hastings. They have quite the story to share with everyone, and ultimately they are trying to spread the word and find Jill Rosenthal, who is Jack's twin sister. She has been missing since nineteen sixty five. I'm going to go ahead and let them each introduce themselves and then we'll go from there. Tracy and Jack, welcome to Primetime Crime. Thanks so much for joining us today. Thanks for having us. Tracy, ladies, first, thank you Jack, thanks for having us today. My name is Tracy Hastings. I am the co host of The Bronzick Files. I also I am a registered nurse in high risk of stetrics in Tucson, Arizona, where I live. I have background in genetic genealogy thirty years genealogy, about five years in genetics helping people discover their trade to and I have a long history about forty years or so performing professionally on. Stage as a vocalist. And about ten months ago Jack reached out to me and said, Hey, with this weird set of skills that you have, how'd you like to be the host of this podcast with me and here we are. And so far so good, So far, so good. I'm Paula Jack Faronzac, creator of the Forranzac Files. I'm an author, musician, actor, and I started this podcast to help other people through the course of my journey. A lot of people wrote in saying that I'm inspiring them, My story is inspiring them to start their own journeys. So I wanted to cast a wide net and help as many people as we possibly can. We have a great team of genetic genealogists, researchers and of course the impeccable Traciations to help get this message out there and to help as many people as we possibly can. So thanks for having us. Yes, it's great to have both of you. What you're doing is amazing, not just with your own story, but helping others. That's really what it's about at the end of the day. So Jack, I'm going to go ahead and let you kind of lead things off, kind of get into a timeline of everything and how we got where we are today, and then we'll just kind of take it from there. So kind of a cliff note version of what happened. Yeah, let's do a cliff note version and then we'll get into more specifics as it goes. I have some questions written up, so yeah, let's just do a cliff notes version first. Okay. So in nineteen seventy four, I was snooping around my parents' house and the crawl space looking for Christmas presents, and of course, as you know, when every things start in a crawl space, it's going to be a happy ending the crawl space, I found a bunch of boxes and I thought, this is it the big score. I'm going to find the presence. So I started looking through them. What I was finding were newspaper clippings headlines as you can see behind me on my murder board, all about this kidnapping of this Phronsiac child, Paul Joseph Ranzac. And I was like, well, that's me. So I was really excited. I mean, because you know, when you're ten years old, you're thinking about cool stories you can share with your friends. I thought this would be a cool story. I'm part of this kidnapping thing. So if you go back ten years, my parents had had their child, Paul Joseph Ronzi and Michael Hic's hospital in Chicago. Someone dressed like a nurse came in told Missus Faranzac that the doctor had to see the baby. Missus Froanzick handed the baby over that nurse took the baby, went out of that room, went down a backstair, jumped in a cab, and vanished without a trace, setting off one of the largest manhunts in our country next to the Limberg baby. Fast forward to twenty twelve. I had my daughter Emma in twenty two thousand and nine. But you were going in for checkups and everything. Doctor always asks you what's your medical history. I always spotted off what I thought was my medical history. I started thinking, what if I'm really not this Paul Franzac because I never felt like Paul Faranziac. Even being called Paul never felt right to me. So I decided then to ask my parents to do a DNA test and find out if I'm really there's their child. If I'm not, then I would take take the next steps to start solving mysteries. And that's that's what led us today to where we are today with the Forensics Files podcast. I've got two books and a movie on HBO called The Lost Sons. That's a lot of information in't it. Yeah, it really is. So I do have a question. You said that you never really quite felt like Paul. Was that something that you felt prior to finding these newspaper clippings or is it not something you really realized until once. You found them. I think it's kind of a cumbination of things. Just for some reason, being called Paul just never seemed right to me. But as I started getting older, I started seeing things that weren't really the same in the family. I didn't look like my mom and dad, but my brother did exactly. He had a certain easiness with them that I didn't have. We had to like force a relationship where he just had this easiness. He just kind of just settled into the family. You know, things like that. I was drawn to things. I was never exposed to music. Then they never played any music in the house, but I was always playing rush albums and deep purple things like that. You know, they would leave and I'd go go to the Hi Fi and just blast twenty one twelve. You know, things like that. So you know, you start, as you start getting older, you start questioning yourself, why am I drawn to things I'm not exposed to? And right, yeah, if you look at pictures of him with his family. Yeah, I mean, anybody looking at them is going to say one of these things is not like the other. He looks nothing like them, but his brother does strongly resemble their father. Absolutely. Wow, that's really very interesting. So once you found this out, what were your parents'. Reaction when I got the results back. Yeah, when you got the results that you were their son. So that's a tricky one. I got the results back in twenty twelve, and my parents didn't want me to send in the DNA kit, the paternity test as it was, but I did because I was finally getting that close to getting the truth. How can you just not do it right, Because if you're not living the truth, you're not living at all. So I couldn't just tell them. So I thought I would go to George Nap, who was one of the best reporters out here. He broke Area fifty one. You know, it was won numerous awards for reporting, the Peabody Award. I thought that I would go to him. We could do a story, find the real Paul, my parents kidnap child, and then, you know, just make them happy and everything would be great. So I didn't tell them but when it came close to the story first airing on the news, George said, you better tell your folks because once this hits, it's going to be a storm, but you better be ready for it. So I sent them an email because they're both in their eighties, and I knew if I'd tried to call them they would only hear what they wanted to hear. They couldn't process it, and they would probably just shut down after the first couple of words and just get all angry. So I penned an email explaining everything, thinking that they could read it over and over, they could process it at their own speed and then realize that all I want to do is help find their kidnap child. It didn't go like that at all. Oh man, that's got to be such an odd position on both sides, for you and for them. You know, to me, it wasn't odd. I was on a mission. This horrible thing happened to them, and all I wanted to do was find their kidnap child. And they thought that I wasn't happy with them as parents, and I wanted to find my biological parents, you know, if they were out there, if I wasn't really their child. Right right, which I always found that interesting that that was their main concern was that he was trying to find different parents, not where is our real son? Where's our biological child? That was never really anything that they were questioning. They were hurt by the fact that they felt his mission was to find new parents. So but so there was you know, they were caught in this position where both of them had different expectations of where this was going to go, and how do you meld those things together? Yeah? Good point. So from there, what were your next steps? Obviously your mission was to figure out who their real kidnap son was, So where did. You go from there? How did you go about that? So the first thing we did was I started working with George and at that reporter for k LOS TV out here in Vegas, and we put together a story and that story ran and the next day we were getting just hit with requests from every news outlet, every TV show, you know, Barbara Walters, everyone to do the story. And so George and I were happy because to me, I wanted to cast the widest net out because that would ensure that we would find the real Paul as quick as possible. That's all I wanted to do, and it turned out to be this really really long journey because back then, in twenty twelve, people weren't really doing DNA. Ancestry was just getting started. There was a few companies. But when I first did my ancestry test, I had zero hits for the first four or five months, not one. Now, when you do it, you get like one thousand fourth cousins, fifth cousins. I had nothing. So it was I mean, you think you're alone when you don't know who you are. Try to putting your DNA in a DNA site and getting nothing, you were totally alone. Wow. Because when he was doing this, it was in the infancy of these databases. They had really just launched at that point. So you know, now we've got you know, a huge percentage of the population has tested and has their DNA online and it's pretty much possible to find just about anyone. There's enough people online to be able to connect the dots. But at that time, it was a barren there was just nothing there for him. Wow, DNA wasteland. Yeah, absolutely, So once the story kind of picked up a little speed, where did you go from there? So it picked up a lot of speed. I mean, it was crazy. We had I had reporters outside my house just trying to track us down and you know, ask questions and things. So the focus was to try to find the real Paul. That was the main reason I started this whole journey. And during that first episode the news running with George, he was like, well, don't you want to know who you are? And I'm like, I haven't even thought about that, but yeah, that's a good idea. I should probably know who I am too. You know, I have a daughter that might want to know who her dad really is. So we we decided to do a Coast to Coast episode because George Knapp also co hosts, well he does, he's a part time co hoster for Coast to Coast, am perfect show for us, you know, conspiracy theories, paranormal everything that we're into. So I did an episode and luckily it caught the attention of a lot of people. But really importantly was CC Moore, one of our top genetag analogists in our country. So she decided to reach out and say that she would, you know, help pro bono to help find out who I was and also try to help find the real Paul. So that's what kind of set us on the right trajectory to find out those answers that we were looking for. It's all so interesting how one step leads to another, leads to another, and going back, I want to go back a little bit to the initial abduction of baby Paul. That was way back in the sixties. So a lot of things have changed since then, I would assume and hope I don't really hear about infant abductions from hospitals anymore. But can you guys kind of speak on how things were back then and how she was seemingly able to slip in, pretend to be a nurse and then slip out, and nobody really said anything or thought anything was wrong. So I'll say that even though that horrible tragedy happened, that something good came out of it, and I'll let the RN talk about that. So this is one of those spots where my background as a labor and delivery are in comes in handy here. So at the time that this kidnapping took place in nineteen sixty four, infant security really wasn't a thing. It was a different time and place. We felt like it was a kinder, gentler place. There was terrible things going on behind the scenes, like there always is, but the image of America at that time was of a safe place, so infant security really wasn't a thing. Now. Labor and delivery units are locked units. You have to have bad access or be buzzed in. You have to show identification who you are, who you're coming to see, confirm that that person is there. There's multiple steps to do to be able to get onto these units to even visit family. At the time babies were they were doing footprints, but they weren't doing them consistently. Hospitals had different policies. There was nothing that was across the board in nineteen sixty four that was a policy that. Everyone was following. So baby Paul did not get any prints taken, no handprints, no footprints for identification, which we would do now. There was one photograph taken of him, and it was sort of a side view, so his ear was exposed on that photo, but that was about the only beside His face was the only other defining feature that we were able to see. And so because there was such a lack of security, this nurse was able to person posing as a nurse was able to walk the unit. She got on the unit without any questions, walk the unit, was able to interact with housekeeping. She was seen helping to fold linen's at one point with the housekeepers, which nurses don't do that. That's what housekeeping does, so it was an unusual thing for a nurse to be doing. It did send up a red leg for that housekeeper, who then reported it later that they thought it was odd that a nurse was helping them do that, But it was really probably more just a matter of trying to figure out how the floor functioned, who was. Going, where, where were the babies? You know, how long were they in the nursery, When were they being taken to the room. This is all very calculated. There was also evidence to show that she was going from room to room, actually in the Michael Ray Maternity Wing, looking at different babies. Other women gave testimony that yeah, she's They came into her room, she was looking at the babies, pulled the blankets down, looked at the face, walked out, didn't say anything, and for some reason. Decided that Baby Paul was the right one. And now we put we call them jokingly, baby lojacks on babies when they're born, so they have a security device on their ankle, and the hospital is wired, and so we have something called code pink in our hospitals. Now, if an infant goes missing, unable to be located, a code pink is called overhead, the elevator stopped running, the door's lock, the hospital goes into lockdown, No one comes in, no one goes out until this baby is found. So, Tracy, what prompted code pink? So that would be the abduction of Paul J. Justin Franzac in April of nineteen sixty four. Oh cool, wow, So I really do think that, you know, it is a horrible tragedy that this happened, But what would have gone in hospitals had that not been put into place because of this kidnapping? Absolutely? Yeah wow. So after baby Paul was kidnapped, what did the police do? What did the hospital do? What was the protocol? I know they didn't really know what to. Do, I'm sure. Well, the hospital didn't want to tell Missus Bronzac that her baby was missing, so they instructed the intern nurse that was taking care of Missus Bronzac to not say a word, just let her go through the daily routine, the classes that they were doing, the you know whatever they were doing child classes, things like that, Do not tell her that her baby's missing. It's probably just misplaced. We'll find it. And that went on for five hours. Finally they realized that this baby's gone. We've got to do something. So they called mister Franzac at work and said, your baby's missing. You need to come down here and tell your wife. So my dad, who was happy at work, he had to go down, go down to the hospital and talk to his wife and say, our child is missing. As soon as he said that, the FBI and all the cops rushed into the room and it was just a flurry of questions and you know, trying to the investigation was pretty much started. They had sent ten thousand letter carriers all across the city of Chicago going door to door trying to find this baby. All the police. FBI, like I said, it was one of the largest manhunts in our country. Baby hunts. Wow, I can't even imagine your poor parents having to go through that. So let me jump ahead a little bit. They obviously ended up with you. So how did that happen? How did they end up with you as their child? So I was found abandoned in Newark, New Jersey, on July between the second and the seventh. Because we're getting conflicting information now, which we'll get into later, but I was found. I was outside of Bandon McCrory's variety store. I was placed in the foster care system. I was given the name Scott McKinley, and I became I was baptized with Scott, and I was living this other life for about a year. The FBI shows up and says that I'm the kidnap child from Chicago. So they contacted the Franzacs and they said, I think we found your kidnap child. You need to come to New Jersey and identify him. So my parents went from Chicago. This is nineteen sixty six. They went to drove to New Jersey. They're put in a room, reporters are outside, and they're having the FBI tell them that that's your kidnapped child. So my mom looked at me and said, oh my god, that's my baby. But did she really know she spent maybe fifteen minutes with this baby two years earlier. But she said the world was watching and that if she said, no, that's not my child, then she would worry what happened to me? Was I put you back in the foster care system? Was I going to be okay? Or I could say yeah, that's my child, because I very well could have been. And that's what she said, she said, that's my child. Wow, that whole story is just it's almost one of those things that if it wasn't your life, you wouldn't believe it because how does something like that happen? How do they go from Nork to Chicago and just assume this is the stolen. Baby based on the shape of an ear. Yeah, So that's. Where the ear photo of Paul Francis was into play, because they had a ficure of his. Ear and they had a picture of Jack's ear. You know, they could see his ear and so they at the time it was thought that ear compatibility was just as good as a fingerprint, and the ears were just as unique as that as fingerprints were, so they couldn't rule him in, but they also couldn't rule him out as being baby Paul because of the ear. Also based off of his blood type, they were unable to rule him in or out based off of his blood typing and the other tests that they did, you know, forensics, and this type of thing was in its infancy in the sixties. It was only so much they could do to try to see is this the right baby. Could you imagine watching a CSI episode and they say this is the baby your baby because of the shape of the ear, They'd be canceled. The show would be gone. Yeah, absolutely, Oh man, I can't. At the time, it was considered very high tech, right, very cutting bitch, and so people bought it. People believed it. And I think too, the FBI told you something, you're gonna believe it. You're not gonna doubt though. You're just right back then, yeah, true enough. I also said that your you know, your mom felt a lot of pressure too. They were literally using the words this is your baby and so. And I think your mom at one point had said something about, you know, when the FBI tells you something. Yeah, you listen. She was in her twenties and she has us a thirty saying something, you're going to listen. And obviously this traumatizing thing of having their child stolen, they wanted their child back. So well, it's actually worse than that, because before she had her child kidnapped there, you're earlier, she had a stillborn in that same eternity wing. Oh wow. Awful. So I would never go back to that hospital. Yeah, yeah, definitely. And so you know, you rolled that trauma in right, the trauma of giving birth to your first baby is a stillborn son. And then you get pregnant again and you're you know, you've got all the anxiety going along with having had a stillbirth. Is this going to happen to me again? You make it to delivery, you deliver a healthy, nine pound, two ounce baby boy, and he's stolen the next day. I can't imagine the trauma that Dora Franzac and. Door through that and not even stone but out of your arms you handed him over, ye, And she. Lives with that, And that's that's a lot of That's a lot to carry for a single person. Yeah, for anyone. It's awful, absolutely awful. So years down the road, you discover you are not Paul Franzac. You go through these channels to try to figure out who the real Paul is? Did you find Paul? We found the real Paul. And once again, this journey has never been just good news, good news. It's been good news, really bad news, good news, really bad news. It's it's always been like that. So right at the time that we actually found the real Paul Covid hit and then he was diagnosed with a very very aggressive cancer, so couldn't travel because my only mission was to have my mom reconnect with her kidnap child, her biological child. And when we found him, I was beyond ecstatic, but we couldn't tell anybody because they wanted to remain anonymous. He actually called my mom, My daughter and I were actually in Chicago visiting, so we got to hear the first phone call, which was amazing. They talked a few more times, and then after he was diagnosed with this cancer, he died shortly after he died a day before his birthday, April twenty fifth, twenty twenty. Without ever having been physically reunited with his mom. Yeah, because he couldn't travel. Yeah, that's so tragic. Do we know anything about his upbringing? Who was he, where did he grow up, who raised him? Any of that? Just a little Yeah, we've been digging deep on this one. You want to give some details, sure, Well, we know that he was raised in Michigan by a woman named Lorraine Fountain, and he had married. He had three daughters. He worked as a machinist. Strangely enough, so did his father, Chester Franzac. So DNA nature versus nurture right, And his upbringing was not a good one. It was filled with a lot of alcoholism and violence and crime which influenced how he lived his life and the experiences that he had. So I know the answer to this, but my listeners do not. Is it believed that the woman who raised him is also the woman who. Kidnapped him or no? I'm going to say no, because we have eyewitness accounts of the woman that was the kidnapper doesn't match the description of Lorraine at all. But we do have a connection that runs pretty deep. Yeah. So when Dora Franzac was shown a photo of Lorraine Fountain, she said, no, that's not the kidnapper. And I mean, what better source do we have than the woman who looked her right in the face And she unequivocally said no, that's not her. So we knew. Pretty quickly we could rule her out as having done the actual kidnapping. But we did have some help along the way to help point us in certain directions, and we've been able to identify someone We've been able to connect to Lorraine Fountain, and a lot of things about this person line up. This person has a connection to someone who was a nurse who could have provided her with information about how a hospital operates, how a nursery wing operates, could have provided her with the proper outfit that she was wearing to go into the hospital in puts her in the right locations at the right times. And the name that the real Paul Franzic was given that he was raised using, which was Kevin Batty. Kevin ray Bady was his given name. This woman that we suspect is the actual kidnapper was married to a man named Ray Baby. Wow. Just my absolutely mind blowing. And I've heard this story, but hearing it again, it's just astonishing. It really is. It doesn't seem real, No, not at all. Now. I know you guys are still in the process of kind of digging into all of that, so I mean, who knows what's to come with all that. You and your team are doing what you're. Gonna find, We're getting close. That's amazing. I love that, But I mean that's what it's all about you're trying to Yeah, you know, long mystery. You know, this woman has since passed away, but that doesn't mean that she should escape Rice. Yeah, exactly. Wow, So Jack, tell us a little bit about after the real Paul passed away? What kind of things looked like in that time frame. I know COVID was ongoing and all, but what kind of happened next in this timeline? Okay, So I started this in twenty twelve. I didn't find my true identity til twenty fifteen, so that took three years, and then we didn't find the real Paul till twenty nineteen. So it's been a process. You know, it's it's something that you just can't give up. You've got to keep digging. You've got to keep knocking on doors. You've got to keep asking questions. You can't take no for an answer. Yeah, you just have to keep grinding for sure. Exactly as we say digging, because I've dug a couple of graves, so we just keep digging. It will come to that too. Yeah, you'll hear about the grave digging story too. So let's get into that aspect of it. Your true identity and all that comes with that, because that's truly it's a big story. But the reason we're here today is to try to find Jill. That's the ultimate goal at the end of all of this. Help other people, but spread awareness for Jill's disappearance. So let's talk a little. Bit about, you know, how you found out who you were and all that has transpired. Suns with that. Okay, So when I started opening with CC and her team back in twenty twelve, twenty thirteen, it was going back and forth. They're traveling to these different places, They're running down leads. I had a third cousin that popped up on ancestry DNA that had an oral history of her family from her grandfather. He remembered certain things and they started matching up certain names, so we were able to reverse engineer all these people. That kind of brought us to zeroing in who I might be. They found some newspaper articles from October twenty seventh, nineteen sixty three, when Jack and Jill Rosenthal were born, because we shared the same birthday as my older sister, So that really really honed in on who I actually was and the fact that I had a sister when Cecymore first found my chrue identity. She texted me and said, hey, can you talk? So whenever she would saying that, I knew it was something important. So I ran out to my car because I was at work, and I called her and she said, hey, what do you think of the name Jack? I said that that's a good name. It's a strong name. She said, that's your name. So I was just I was starting to smile, going I like that. Before I could actually enjoy that moment, she said, but there's more. You've got a twin sister, Jill, and she's missing. So immediately I kicked into I've got to find Jill. That was my next mission. And then, you know, through all this, you know, uh DNA testing, running down names, knocking on doors, we were able to track down who I actually was, found the family, and then once we found that, then I went on a mission to try to find Jill. Wow, that's such a story. So once you discovered your true identity, what did you find out about your biological family, your parents, your other siblings, the circumstances around you and Jill being separated. Were you able to find anything out about that? So originally I thought that maybe something happened to Jill, because I had first hand accounts from cousins that had actually seen Jack and Jill together. Jill was a little more a frail I guess she was, you know, they said that she looked like me, but she was feminine. We heard stories of how we were abused, thrown downstairs, things like that, so I thought maybe something bad had happened to Jill. Maybe they actually accidentally killed her and they couldn't explain one twin laing around the house. That's why I was abandoned. But I have since changed my mind and I'm looking at the more positive at things. I'm hoping that maybe I know they needed money, Maybe they sold Jill and they just wanted to get rid of me. I don't know, but I had two older sisters that were treated like princesses, and then Jill and I were kept in a dark room in separate cribs, no food, no water, dirty diapers, just totally neglected a black eye. We got a first hand account from a babysitter that watched us for one night and she ran out of that house of horrors and never went back. So that was pretty much my upbringing. We have a really powerful interview on the podcast in season one with Susan Waller, who is the babysitter, and she gave us an amazing interview and account of what she saw and heard. And she was a fourteen year old girl at the time that she was asked a babysit at the Rosenthal House. And she's the one that gave the testimony of the dirty diapers, the dark room, the curdled milk in the bottles, babies that didn't respond when you reached out to them. There was no crying, it was silent, just very flat affected little ones that just didn't know how to interact with other people because they had been so isolated. Yeah, that interview was very powerful, and my heart just went out to her because you can tell it has stuck with her all this time and she never forgot it. And it's just absolutely heartbreaking that you were. Treated that way. You and your poor sister were treated that way. So what do we know about your parents, your bio parents. We know that they weren't very nice people. My mom had some serious problems. They had lost their first house. My dad left for a while, probably maybe over the fact that she had how many kids and. What period she had five children in three and a half years. Yeah, in Atlantic City. Yeah, and you know, as far as that goes, you know, as far as taking care of pregnant women, those short interval pregnancies. Just there's so much involved with that. How do you manage that many babies at a time financially, emotionally, physically, mentally, and if you already got alcohol issues, you've got gambling problem, You've got all these other addiction issues rolling on top of it. Don't have what you need to be able to give to these children. And short interval pregnancies also affect, you know, maternal mindset. It can lead to severe postpartum depression and even psychosis, which could also segue into abusive behavior. Yeah, not a good combination, the perfect storm. So five kids in what like four years? Those downs are four years? Yeah. Yeah. So you have siblings out there, other siblings. Have you been able to contact them, have they been able to give you any information? How does that kind of stand right now? I have an older sister that I actually met once, and I have a younger brother that I've spoken to a few times. They have both sense cut ties. They think it's a scam. They want nothing to do with it, which speaks volumes to me, you know, either to cover up they're afraid of repercussions something. Yeah, and that's really unfortunate because unfortunately your biological parents have also passed away, so there's not the people that were around back then. A lot of them have passed on. So getting the information you really need to hopefully figure out where Jill is, it's hard. You guys are kind of just having to navigate that on your own. Yeah, we still have a few more people that we need to speak with. We have a couple of theories that we're working on right now, so we even though it's been so long, we're still solving things and we're still moving ahead. Yeah, and I think that that's admirable because this is such a layered process and gathering the team you've gathered, putting all the work you guys have put in doing the podcast raising awareness. I think it's really. Amazing and I would want you helping me if I was in that situation, because you guys are doing an amazing job. Well, let's make sure your listeners know. Yes, I have been a shower from the rooftops. So right now, how is the investigation into finding Jill going. I know there is a. Age progress photo that neck mek came out with. Can you talk there it is? I were posting that on my social media as well. Can you talk a little bit about that and kind of how you got involved with neck MEC. And all of that. So I've always kind of hung out with NECKMEK, the National Center for Missing and Exploited Children. During this I've been an advocate for missing children, missing people. But the last thing I wanted to do was was go into law enforcement, you know, with my story and open a case, because once you do that, you usually get shut out. But a couple of years ago, how how many years ago now, like twenty eighteen, Yeah, probably, I decided I'm stuck. I'm going to go to Atlantic City Police and open missing person's case. Thought I was doing the right thing end opening a case with a detective that gave me a false number and never did anything. So I lost a whole year thinking that we were moving forward. I'm trying to find my sister, And it makes you wonder, why would they do that after all these years? Right, go to the trouble of giving you a faith. And yeah, why why do that. I mean, that's a lead off. This is a law enforcement officer blatantly breaking the law in order to protect what, in order. To cover up what. So after nec Mac said, we can't help you because we don't have a missing person's case number that's valid. So I was able to open a missing person's case with the new Jersey State Troopers, a real missing person's case. And since then, we've launched a campaign. We've tested a few women that could have been Jill, and we're working on one right now. So it's pretty exciting. Women hear this story. And so the questions are, you know, if you have questions about your identity, If you don't have any photographs of yourself as an infant, this is unusual, right, people have baby pictures. If you have zero photos of yourself before like the age. Of two, something might be up there. If you've questioned your identity for any reason, please reach out to us. We would love to talk to you and get you try to see if we can help you. Yeah, and I think, going back to what you said, if you've never felt like you belonged in your family, if you feel like something's amiss, there's been so many cases Carlena White, Steve Carter, same situations where. Something just didn't feel right. I mean, Carlena White solved her own missing person's case when she saw herself on neck mech So if you do have that hesitation that something's just not right, I might not be who I think I am. That's the time to reach out and get your DNA tested. Absolutely. Yes, So kind of. Piggybacking off of that, I have uploaded my DNA to Ancestry and I find it so fascinating to go in and look at my family tree and everything. But there are people who are hesitant about that. So what would you say to those people that are kind of on the fence about sending their DNA in and getting it uploaded to ancestry or twenty. Three and me? So, first of all, are you really it's. Good for you? Yeah, that's half the battle. We're happy to hear that. So I will say, I would say, if if you do it and you find something different, pursue it. Just you've got to find the truth, because if you're not living the truth, you're not living at all. You know, It's it's harder to live a lie and ruminate on things that aren't true that you make up in your mind. Once you know the truth, no matter how hard it is, at least you know it's the truth, you can process it and you can move forward. What do you think, Well, just from the genetic genealogy standpoint, I think a lot of people are concerned that their DNA is going to be used for nefarious purposes, so they're concerned about their privacy. So if you do upload, you don't have to share your DNA. There's an option to not share, and you can just see what your ethnicity is and those type of things without matching you to other people. The government does not have access to Ancestry or twenty three and Me or any of those types of publicly held DNA companies you need. If you want to participate in law enforcement, you can upload to DNA Justice and they will share your DNA with law enforcement and possibly you could be helpful in the use of genetic genealogy to help identify missing persons. But off of Ancestry, off of twenty three and me, that's not something that law enforcement has access to. You can you can also on jed match. You can upload there as well, and you can opt in or out of your DNA being utilized by law enforcement. Yeah, I've uploaded through a jet batch because my opinion on it is, I if I can help somebody in some way, shape or form, I want to. I find the whole DNA of it all so fascinating. Yeah, you know, people lie, but DNA doesn't. Yeah, exactly. So Jack, tell us a little bit about how you started the podcast, why you started the podcast, a little bit about season one, and then I'll let you both kind of talk on what you're working on for season two. Okay, So there's a lot of podcasters out there that have been covering my story. Some of them are are okay, some of them are good. Some of them are just filled with wrong facts. And I was tired of seeing my story being done by other people, and I'm like, maybe I should just do it myself. You know. I authored two books and a lot of you know, they it was inspiring a lot of people to start their own journeys. So I thought that if we start the podcast, maybe that'll reach a wider audience of people having questions about their own identity and moving forward to starting their own their own process to find themselves. And then so season one was actually redoing my story, but doing it with the human element, not just spitting out facts how it affected not only me but all those involved for all these years, and like you mentioned the babysitter, it's like it just happened yesterday. She still carries that with her. You know, law enforcement that were involved, you know people that were around then. So we wanted to get the human element of when you start something like this, it's just not facts. So that was season one. Season two, we're actually helping other real people, other people start their journeys, help them find answers and what to do with that information, how to live with it. I am so looking forward to season two. Season one was so good. From the very first sentence, I was automatically hooked, and then I went down the rabbit hole. I watched The Lost Suns. It was it's just a it's honestly, it's something that if you heard it, you think that it wasn't real. But hearing you tell it, and then hearing Tracy's take on things as someone with her background, it just really has been so amazing to listen to, and for my listeners, I'm going to link all of that below in the show notes as well as the HBO mat Stock your two books, which I have because I can't. I just can't get enough of this story. It's just and it's your life. Like at the end of the day, I always tell my listeners there are real people behind these cases. We're talking about a real person that has multiple people now who have been affected by this tragedy. And really all you can do is put one foot in front of the other, try to make a change, try to get the answers that you need, and. Hopefully find Jill. That's the mission at the end of the day, help other. People, you know, That's it right there in nutshell. Yeah. Well, during season two, we're also sprinkling and some we're highlighting some cold cases as well to bring that to the front for because you know, cases are called for a reason. There's you know, the leads have dried up, the witnesses aren't are there. You know, something needs to happen. We need to spark it in order to maybe get interest in these cases going again, bring people forward. So we're using our platform to help other families who are still looking for their missing loved ones. We have been told more than once by people that work in neck NEC and law enforcement that once a case goes cold, it's really the family that's driving it, and if the family doesn't have the means or the ability to do so, then they need help. And so we're going to help them do that. I cover primarily cold cases on my podcast, and I sprinkle in a few solid ones, but most of them are solved after you know, forty plus years. So these are really the cases that need our attention. They need eyes and ears, and they're being solved every day. DNA is solving cases every day. We just have the Austin yogurt chot murder solved after what thirty four years? Yeah, Yeah, that's yeah, awesome. Yeah, just get resolution to that. So to me, it's you know, almost exciting that you're in this position that you're in now and Jill could still be out there. She could be listening to this episode. You just never know. Yeah, can only hope. I am very very. Hopeful that she still is out there and just doesn't know she's. Missing me too. Yeah, because I think. If anyone's going to do it, it's going to be you guys. Absolutely. Yeah. So Jack, can you speak a little You're twins, so can you speak a little I've heard, you know, twin telepathy and kind of having that interconnection. Do you feel, as someone who's missing their twin sister that she is still out there? So I will say that my whole life, I've been searching for something. I've gone through a lot of jobs, a couple of marriages, you know, things like that, moved maybe forty times. I'm always searching for something. And I think it goes back to my twin being missing, because I spent the first almost two years with her in very close proximity, and all of a sudden we're separated. So I think that's been kind of why I've been the way I am, and I do feel that she's alive. When I was digging a grave in Atlantic City, I paid this guy to raid our sweep my grandma's old property. The house was gone, but the yard's still there, and so he did rad our sweep and he's he found three possible grave sites in that backyard. It is Atlantic City, you know, only three. So we had time to dig up one. We got six feet down, the water was starting to come up from the ocean, and he found bones. And he looked up from that hole and he said I've been digging holes out here for twenty years, never saw one bone, let alone a shovelful. It turned out they were animal bones. But the fact that we did that and I was prepared for that situation, there's nothing that we can't do to find Jill. Yeah, that's incredible. I can't even imagine being in that situation where you think that maybe you're about to uncover who is your sister. But I'm so relieved it wasn't her because there's still hope that she's out there. And I think it, Yes, I absolutely. I get so I want to say giddy when a case is solved, because it it just gives I feel like it gives these families who have been searching for answers for so long, all of this hope that you know, it's not the end. Just because it's cold doesn't mean it's done. There's always things that can be done. And your podcast, my podcast, being you know, in its little corner of the podcasting space, the true crime podcasting space, it really does make a difference. And I have to remind myself of that because sometimes I get people that say, oh, I don't want to listen to your podcast because I don't like cold cases. Well, I get we all like resolution, but these are real people. That's what I always say. These are real people, real lives. Their lives continue after the podcast episode ends, after the dateline or twenty twenty special ends. So that's really what we need to be focusing on, is these cases that don't have resolution. But need it. You know. So when I was shooting the twenty twenty episodes with Barbara Walters, I promised her I was going to find the real Paul and she kind of smiled and said, that's a pretty heavy lift. You know. I hope you do, but you know, it's been fifty years. And when I was part of that and we found him, to me, if you find a kidnap child that was kidnapped over fifty years ago, there's nothing that you can't do. You just can't give up. Yeah, you have to keep going right, and. Sometimes you need to wait for technology to catch up. We needed forensics to catch up to get us to this point where we were able to perform these DNA tests and all the records that are digitized now that are online that we're able to reach without even leaving our houses and be able to connect these dots together has been invaluable as well to helping find pieces to his puzzle. And so we're just utilizing what's available to us now that law enforcement hasn't utilized, but we are. I think it's it's admirable that you're doing what you're doing and keeping. The word out there. So as far as Jill goes, the age progressed photo, was that made kind of looking at you know, what you look like as an adult. Because I know there's no photos of her, Is that correct? No known photos correct? Right? Yeah, So it was partly me, my mom and dad. We have pictures of them and my older sister and my younger brothers, so they kind of used all those to try to figure out what she may look like. We also had our own pictures done using AI and I think they came. Out that I think I saw them on your website. Yeah, yeah, you can see them on the website. It yeah, the more real it, yeah, seems like it has a little bit more realistic slant to it because his two older sisters look very different from him. His younger brother, they resemble each other a fair amount, but the two older sisters look very different. So in being able to incorporate their look in as well. It's certainly possible that Jill could have looked a lot like Jack when they were small, and as she grew up she might have sort of changed her look and looked more like her sisters. Yeah. I think it's fascinating. The few missing children's cases I've covered that they have found the real, you know, the child years later. They look a. Lot like the age progress photos and it's just amazing that they're able to do that and come up with it, and it is so accurate on such limited information. It really is, and it really helps, especially when someone recognizes themselves on the website. That's pretty darn. Yeah, it's crazy to even think about. I can't imagine going on a website and seeing myself looking back. Yeah. So, is there anything else you. Guys want to share with my listeners that will help propel Jill's cases forward? What can we do as a true crime podcasting community to help, because that's what we're here to do. Well, first of all, I hope that your listeners enjoy the story and that if they're curious to check out the things that we've done, you know, check out the podcast and the movie, the books, things like that, and of course start their own journeys if they need to start a journey. But as far as Jill, if you see something or you think you hear something that doesn't add up, reach out to us because we vet every tip and lead that we get, and you never know that one that you think might be crazy crazy out there might be the one that helped solve it. What do you think. One of the details that we have is from Susan Wallert, who told us that she had heard after the twins disappeared that one of the twins was taken to either New York or Newark, which we know happened. He was abandoned in Newark, and the room around the street was that the other twin was taken to Ohio, which is where their mother comes from. So we've been focusing on sort of that area where we've been looking for candidates for potentially being and so the the person that we're currently looking into who has a very strong story resides in that area. So if you're in that area and any of this sounds familiar to you or just fascinating to you, reach out to us. Yeah, chills when you said that, because you just never know it might be something that turns into. Solving a case. You just don't know. So if you do have any inkling of information, it's best to come forward and you know, let the let the people that are involved in it solve it and figure it out. Figure if it's a real tip or if it's just something that's you know, not useful, but you don't know unless you put it out there. Correct. I agree, absolutely. Another thing I was thinking about, you know, you were abandoned in front of the department store. I kind of wonder, and this is just me thinking in my brain if the reason you were abandoned separately is because twins abandoned would have kind of set off alarm bells. Although a child abandons a big deal, but if there was two of you, I feel like it would have been maybe more traceable to Oh, these twins must belong to these. People, you know. Yeah, Yeah, that's a very good point, very valid. And one of the things that we have also, theories that we have is that even though the twins were concealed for the most part, a lot of people didn't know that the twins existed. There were people that had seen them, family members, the babysitter, people did know they existed. There was the article in the newspaper announcing their birth. So even though the Rosenthals tried very hard to scrub the twins from history, they didn't scrub everything. So we do know that that you know they were there. But also they didn't abandon him in Atlantic City. And they didn't do that for a reason because Atlantic City potentially could have run photographs and run an article that said a baby has been found and someone might have recognized him as being the Rosenthal twin and could then he would have been recovered and brought back. And so we surmised that they wanted to make sure that didn't happen, and that's why they drove two hours and away and abandoned. Do you know, do you know if they had any connection to Nork? I don't think anything directly. Necessarily. I will say that my dad did something in law enforcement on the boardwalk in Atlantic City. They had a mccrary's store on the boardwalk, and I was abandoned outside mccrary's in Newark. Interesting. Yeah, coincidence. Yeah, there's no such thing as coincidence, as we've decided after not here anyway for sure. Wow, So we definitely. You know, we take every little bit of information and we process it to see how does it fit into this picture? Does it fit and or can we make it fit? Well, you guys are doing a fantastic job. I am encouraging all my listeners to go listen to season one of The Franzac Files. When is season two coming out? Do you have a date? Yes, we are dropping on Tuesday, October twenty eighth. A day after my biological birthday and my adoptive mom's birthday. And this is for my birthday. Strangely enough, so we're a score that's so full circle and almost like a sign. You know. Yeah, we thought too when we were mapping out when should we drop episode one? Season two perfect October twenty eight. We find you on social media to kind of. Follow along, So we're on YouTube. You can see us in full video audio there season one. We also have some shorts and things like that you can see there. We are all across social media, Facebook, Instagram, all. We have our website at the Forensic Files dot com. We're on Spotify, Apple Music, Amazon Music, wherever you get your podcasts quote unquote, you can find us there and you can also reach out to us email us Paul Jack at the Frontzac Files, Tracy at the Fenzac Files, or info at the friends like filestill. And I'll be sure to put all of that in my show notes link everything so that way my listeners can easily find everything that they need, because you guys have I looked at your website yesterday and I'm just very impressed with everything. It looks great, really really good job. You have an. Amazing team behind you, and I'm so grateful that Colleen reached out because this it's been great getting to kind of learn the story and. Help propel Jules case case forward. And being a part of the podcast community together right this. You know, this shouldn't be competitive, this should be collaborative. Absolutely, So let's tell us. Take a village. It's you know, in order to solve these cases that we need solved and to get resolution for you, we need multiple people. So that's what it's all about. Yeah, I appreciate you having a son. Yeah, thank you so much today. I know my listeners loved hearing all of the things. And if you want more detail, go to the Franzac Files podcast. Thank you, Thank you,